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RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Keep in mind, it is not “Just” that one chord, the C7 that takes you to F is also a change of scale. The melody of the song does not have the Bb but the guitar chord implies C major went to C mixolydian (F major tonicization) for a second. So we have 3 different scales actually.
I dunno ricardo, I think you're really over-complicating things.
Theoretically you can play any scale on any chord (whether it sounds good or not is somewhat subjective) so we can have an unlimited number of scales, not just three. But the key, the tonal center, the note that feels like home, is always C. So doesn't matter if you play an Ab, Bb, or F#, we're never leaving C major. A tonicization for a few beats is not a modulation.
Posts: 16542
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to chester)
quote:
A tonicization for a few beats is not a modulation.
No overthinking the fact a tonicization brings in new notes ie a “different scale”. I would not say it is modulation either...but that definition is open to debate ( the longer time spent with a new tonic the more people will hear it as a key change). Perhaps pretending any and every note possible can work is a bit more mental gymnastics than the simple thing I proposed (two different accidentals implies two different scales plus the tonic major scale).... though I agree anything can work. And by the way... why the hell you didn’t back me up with that same argument when I proposed the same concept for flamenco in general?? Instead busted my chops? (Just giving you a hard time)
RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to Ricardo)
Man I can't HELP but bust chops
Not saying you're wrong about the different scales, just worried that our boy Joe will get confused. He should get a firm grasp of vanilla triad harmonization with some simple songs before his mind gets blown and he starts looking up things like the "harmonic major mode".
Posts: 16542
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to chester)
quote:
ORIGINAL: chester
Man I can't HELP but bust chops
Not saying you're wrong about the different scales, just worried that our boy Joe will get confused. He should get a firm grasp of vanilla triad harmonization with some simple songs before his mind gets blown and he starts looking up things like the "harmonic major mode".
Yeah, I should never had mentioned that Fminor chord.
RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to joevidetto)
Anyone see other key changes in this chord progression? I got different results. I think there must be one correct answer. Obviously it starts on A major key and ends on the key of C major.
A F#m G E B G#m F#m B7 Em A7 Dm G F G Em Am7 Dm7 G C
Posts: 16542
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
Anyone see other key changes in this chord progression? I got different results. I think there must be one correct answer. Obviously it starts on A major key and ends on the key of C major.
A F#m G E B G#m F#m B7 Em A7 Dm G F G Em Am7 Dm7 G C
And now it is obvious to me you NEVER bothered to draw your own circle of 5ths and understand the basic thing we discussed 5 or 6 years ago.
A f#m G=D maj or B minor, since neither it is important to understand the basic scale family only, there is no "key" established here.
G E this implies a "false relation" or key change of some sort as E has a G#. F# and C# might still be in play melodically.
EBG#mF#mB7=E major, 4 sharps F,C,G,D...no ambiguity and is a strong tonal progression, relative to the previous ambiguity. In hindsight the opening sequence might imply E DORIAN.
Em A7= Back to E dorian.
A7 Dm = this is a cadence or tonicization of the D minor, out of the key. We jump radically from two sharps to one flat. However, we can soften this sound with melodic minor (all naturals only using C#). That is how tonal harmony works why it is a big clue our flamenco is NOT Freakin ARABIC/EASTERN.
Dm GFGEmAm7Dm7G C=all that is strongly Tonal C MAJOR. We can say that in hindsight the melodic minor suggestion was very appropriate as we were tonicizing the ii chord Dm. EADGC bass line is a specific circle of 5ths sequence or progression (5ths advancing UPWARD, many folks insist on 4ths descending for their own biased reasons "it's actually the circle of 4ths" nonsense).
A basic drawing of the circle of 5ths and understanding that all chromatic notes can be used to move around the thing and still keep a key center is all the theory needed for this exercise.
RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
A f#m G=D maj or B minor, since neither it is important to understand the basic scale family only, there is no "key" established here.
G E this implies a "false relation" or key change of some sort as E has a G#. F# and C# might still be in play melodically.
EBG#mF#mB7=E major, 4 sharps F,C,G,D...no ambiguity and is a strong tonal progression, relative to the previous ambiguity. In hindsight the opening sequence might imply E DORIAN.
Em A7= Back to E dorian.
Would it change your mind if it had 4 sections?
A F#m G E / B G#m F#m B7 / Em A7 Dm G / F G Em Am7 Dm7 G C
The first section is either in A major or in A mixolydian. In A mixolydian key, G (bVII) functions as a dominant. In A major key G is a secondary dominant because of the flattened 7th degree.
The 2nd section is in B maj. The melody is raised up by a whole tone. The same pattern I-VIm for both A F#m and B G#m.
The 3rd section (Em A7 Dm G) can be in D minor. We have a jazz II-V-I progression Em A7 Dm. The last G is a pivot chord for modulating from Dm to C. So we have A -> B -> Dm -> C. The problem is there is a huge jump from B to Dm (from 5 sharps to one flat). I asked google AI. It suggested key changes E -> D -> C. F#m7-B7 (ii-V in E major) Em7-A7 (ii-V in D major) Dm-G (ii-V in C major)
The 4th section is in C major. Overall the following key changes: A -> B -> E -> D -> C
Posts: 16542
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Sharing "implied" chor... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Would it change your mind if it had 4 sections?
no.
quote:
The first section is either in A major or in A mixolydian. In A mixolydian key, G (bVII) functions as a dominant. In A major key G is a secondary dominant because of the flattened 7th degree.
No... The G natural functions only as IV (Subdominant, not dominant) in the key of D. The G pulls out of the key and "Mixolydian" is not a "key" it is a mode. And since you are now forcing the issue of "4 in a group", which you did not earlier, it is important to point out the G-E issue again, is a false relation. If you mean you want to loop the section, back to A from E, then we can start to talk about "A major" but we need a melody not just chords. As a "secondary subdominant function" we still need it to move to D to claim that function. [A:IV/IV->IV would be G to D in the key of A).
quote:
The 2nd section is in B maj. The melody is raised up by a whole tone. The same pattern I-VIm for both A F#m and B G#m.
What melody? There is NONE that you have provided. If you had studied the circle you would know there has to be an A# to call this "B major". ZERO of the chords there imply an A# is required in this "section". This is why when studying "chord scales" they don't give you basic triads that leave ambiguity, they use 7ths and even extensions. E major is the only "key" that contains each of these 4 chords. And because this section and the previous ambiguous one, E dorian is the emphasis with the twist to major in the middle, is a simpler explanation as I stated earlier (E dorian-E major-E dorian-C major).
quote:
The 3rd section (Em A7 Dm G) can be in D minor. We have a jazz II-V-I progression Em A7 Dm.
No single chord suggests Bb, yet again you don't know what "D minor" means on the circle of 5ths. By using a capital "I" you demonstrate D MAJOR as the key. And by phrasing you have ii-V7-I-IV, were the "I" is made minor, or out of place, by the F. Again we have NO MELODY so the key is ambiguous, but considering the (now) 3 sections together, as I said earlier E centric (E dorian may use the key signature of D major).
If these sections had repeat bars in groups of 4, well as I stated earlier, the melodic minor scale cancels the required Bb, and incorporates all the chords. The issue is we came out of a section that had F#s so as per the circle it might sound "weird" to launch into that F natural as a melodic note any time before that A7. Good luck with it.
And now it seems you added the AI check which basically says everything I said first but in less specific detail, yet you still erroneously insist on "A" and "B" as major key centers. No, it would be D-E-D-C. Unless you provide a melody that alters what the chords are doing. So despite your groupings, no, I can stick to what I said earlier, (E Dorian E major E dorian C major) considering THERE IS NO MELODY, and we need to approach these simple chords in linear fashion. Study the circle not AI.
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