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My ring finger sounds weak when playing pai triplets. How can I get a strong ring finger stroke? I watched maestros doing it. Looks like it's a free stroke. Any tips and tricks?
Posts: 16026
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Ring finger in pai abanico (in reply to devilhand)
by design it IS orders of magnitude weaker than the other two strokes. You only need it to be timed correctly for the sound to be correct. Focus on the down-up strength using the wrist action (NOT forearm pronation which is what people wrongly think it is, because the Marote thing is driven THAT way, which is different), which is technically ONLY the index down and thumb up. Make sure that is done with wrist and it is loud as you want it or need it to be, doing a swing gallop rhythm.
1=thumb up 2=ring finger 3=index down.
using wrist practice this rhythm: 3-1....3-1...3-1.... so 1 lands on the beat but you start with that swing pickup note DOWN, because the gravity of the down stroke is quite strong.
After doing that rhythm for a long time, sneak in the 2nd stroke ring finger, without worrying about its strength. Eventually you realize it IS strong enough because it becomes part of the downward sweep of the wrist action that drives your index stroke, but don't worry about that at first cuz that could mess up your timing. Just make sure number 2 stroke has its proper timing in-between the other two rhythms, so you make a perfect triplet.
RE: Ring finger in pai abanico (in reply to devilhand)
Hello. If you follow Ricardo's advice you are sure about doing it right.
I'm using this just a bit differently with the little finger "glued" to the ring for the down movement and I get a bit of a stronger sound than I used to with just the ring or just the little finger.
I also got the rasqueados stronger by accenting every 4 notes in triplets rasqueado so that the accent changes each time forcing the hand to get stronger
RE: Ring finger in pai abanico (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Make sure that is done with wrist and it is loud as you want it or need it to be, doing a swing gallop rhythm. Focus on the down-up strength using the wrist action
I'll try it out. As for gallop rhythm, you mean I should practice separate pai pai pai ending on i downstroke each?
Or should I practice non gallop continious paipaipaip ending on p upstroke?
quote:
Focus on the down-up strength using the wrist action (NOT forearm pronation which is what people wrongly think it is, because the Marote thing is driven THAT way, which is different), which is technically ONLY the index down and thumb up
That wrist action can only happen through forearm pronation? I see or feel no difference.
I can switch between pmp and pai. Optically there's a minor difference. One can hardly tell which one I'm using. Only the way it sounds is different. That's what I'm trying to achieve.
quote:
After doing that rhythm for a long time, sneak in the 2nd stroke ring finger, without worrying about its strength.
Do you think the same concept can be applied to amii ras? One concentrates on the clean and distinct sound of mii triplet. Then gradually introduce the ring finger into mii triplet. The ring finger sneaks in between mii and mii.
RE: Ring finger in pai abanico (in reply to AndresK)
quote:
I'm using this just a bit differently with the little finger "glued" to the ring for the down movement and I get a bit of a stronger sound than I used to with just the ring or just the little finger.
After mastering pai, the rest will come naturally I think.
Posts: 16026
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Ring finger in pai abanico (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
As for gallop rhythm, you mean I should practice separate pai pai pai ending on i downstroke each?
Or should I practice non gallop continious paipaipaip ending on p upstroke?
the video demonstrates what I mean. Start with I-P....I-p....I-p with a swing so that the P is on the beat, or where you "end" if you want, but it means the index down is off beat. Just do I what I do in the video.
The pronation is needed for both but the marote is driven by keeping the wrist straight so the thumb sweeps forward and back across the string. When you do that same action with index, the twisting motion results in a weaker attack. You have to bend the wrist down a bit like if you used a guitar pick to attack the strings. The sensation is that the wrist is driving the stroke down-up, rather than the twisting forearm alone, as it feels with the marote.
RE: Ring finger in pai abanico (in reply to AndresK)
quote:
I'm using this just a bit differently with the little finger "glued" to the ring for the down movement and I get a bit of a stronger sound than I used to with just the ring or just the little finger.
This produces a different sound than an abanico rasgueado. Check out Sanlucar's Panaderos. Not only does the ac produce a stronger stroke but the gap between the ac and i stroke is fractionally longer at least to my ear and the feel I get playing it.
RE: Ring finger in pai abanico (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
When you do that same action with index, the twisting motion results in a weaker attack. You have to bend the wrist down a bit like if you used a guitar pick to attack the strings.
I see what you mean. My ring finger sounds louder now. Thanks.
Posts: 16026
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Ring finger in pai abanico (in reply to devilhand)
For the a finger it will basically be the same, however the point of the wrist action is to get a wider sweep across the strings, and as I said in the previous video, the pai is more versatile such that you can target small voiced chords with it, or all 6 strings. I demoed with a D chord. p-am-p, really works best when you use all 6 strings as the thumb sweep down is a big movement. UP strokes tend to get the trebles but it depends how you do it. Just try the examples I showed in the previous video.
For the record, I tried to be diligent in the notation of the mel bay series I am involved with, such that I write the string groups you need to target in the chord, and use ties for the notes you don't truly strike that are still ringing. Traditionally transcribers write a full voiced chord repeating with each stroke which is often not literal. For example in Formative works I actually write the chord voices like the video above explains. I would do the same with tablature. To me it is a bit lazy to just say "strum this chord with this finger combo" and leave it like that for the student to figure out by ear.
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