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Put your Bridge, saddle and nut questions here and let’s try to create a reference thread. Get out our calipers and good writing ✍️
I began a new topic thread for this subject, lest my ‘guitar for moi’ thread become a protracted exegesis on loose nuttery.
Firefrets quoted below in context of how nuts and saddles should fit to be most effective:
“Let me expand mate, just so you don't misunderstand me. For me a typical guitar nut only needs 2 good surfaces. It should be flat against the floor, and flat against the end of the fretboard. Many guitars don't have anything behind the nut, and so there are only 2 walls available. The fact a hand made Spanish guitar has a slot is useful, but not a trend that flows through every musical instrument.
I'm not advocating a loose fitting poorly cut nut for even a moment, but if the nut sits well against both faces, then it's enough. I'll often apply a little glue to the end of the fretboard just to keep things in place.
Of course if a nut slot has 3 walls, then I'll cut to those walls providing it doesn't mean putting an oversized nut in. The nut will be a 'good' fit, but I'll never put it in tight. Wood moves. The same with a saddle. I like things to 'click' in to place if I can. If I can't pull it out with my fingers it's in too tight.
Again though, for me it's the floor and the front wall on the bridge that are the most important. You could remove the back wall on a standard saddle routing and what difference would it make, really?
All this is just my opinion, but try to interpret what I'm saying.“
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RE: burning Bridges, NUTS on fire an... (in reply to estebanana)
Do bear in mind for context, that the above was a follow up response (not my first reply) to this question:
quote:
"I’ve had a 1970 Ramirez 1a Blanca for close to 40 years. If I remove all the strings and turn the guitar upside down the nut will simply fall out. Am I understanding that the guitar could improve significantly by simply having a new tighter nut made? I think it’s a great sounding guitar as is."
The person who asked the question was concerned that his nut would fall out without strings, and wondered if the nut was replaced by a tight fitting nut, if improvements to the guitar would follow.
* That's not necessarily the same thing as "How nuts and saddles should fit to be most effective".
However, every instrument is different. The term 'tight' can be misleading. On a classical guitar, many builders don't glue the nut in place. They often try to cut the nut so that it sits flush in it's respective slot.
The torque of the strings is enough to keep it in place for the classical player.
However string tension alone would not be enough to keep a steel strung guitar nut in place, particularly if you are bending strings, such as on an electric guitar etc.
My advice to the person who asked the question would be to place a few tiny dots of wood glue on the nut and secure it against the end of the fretboard, which in turn would stop the problem of the nut falling out.
Of course, if the nut is greatly undersized, or isn't sitting flush, that's a different scenario, but without inspecting their guitar it's difficult to decide if any gains could be made.
My first instinct is that if the nut has good contact with the floor of the slot, and the end of the fretboard, then it isn't too important whether or not it is tight against the headstock plate also. There is very little energy at the nut end.
I'd be inclined to state that no noticeable difference to tone, or volume, would be detectable, by swapping the nut out for one that is tight against all 3 faces.
On many instruments, there is no headstock plate. A violin is a perfect example.
Flat against the floor, and flat against the fingerboard is priority for me.
You also have to consider that wood expands and contracts, as does bone, depending on the elements. If you were to have anything 'too tight' a fit, then it would be nonsensical. I've had to cut nuts and saddles out in the past that were so tight it would risk damaging the guitar if one were to forcefully pull, or knock them out.
RE: burning Bridges, NUTS on fire an... (in reply to estebanana)
For a variety of reasons you cannot compare violin mechanics to guitar mechanics and specifically nuts and bridges because they are significantly different in design and function. And violin nuts are glued on directly to the neck. Glued.
And in my opinion and experience working on guitars, tight fitting nuts give significantly more performance. Just my opinion as a player.
RE: burning Bridges, NUTS on fire an... (in reply to estebanana)
I have the engineering books, not that I understand the math behind it. There are notes on how things should fit, here see yellow highlighted text.
It’s been my direct experience that loose nuts and saddles are deficient, and I think it’s because the string can wiggle the nut or saddle in its slot and that’s energy that’s not being transferred to the top or the neck. The nut isn’t simply a terminal point to stop the string, the nut imparts vibration into the system, or as a stop for the string, prompts better performance from the string because it’s a dead still stopping point, not a vibrating stopping point.
I don’t know which of these two things is correct, or perhaps both are correct at the same time, but I do know I feel and hear more performance and guitar presence with nuts that fit very precisely and tightly.
Somewhere in these books they probably talk about why the stopping points of the string must fit snug, but that is above my pay grade. I might poke around and try to find out, but as far as I’m concerned tight nut fit is mandatory.
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RE: burning Bridges, NUTS on fire an... (in reply to estebanana)
If you wanted to discuss nuts, why didn't you just ask? The subject can get quite deep, and we can't cover ever angle in a quick well meant reply. I'm not sure how quoting me slightly out of context is helpful.
Trevor just reiterates what I said - "Against the step in the fingerboard". He's also referring to his own build design.
I mentioned the violin as it is easy to picture, and regardless of the mechanics it's still a nut at the end of the fingerboard. I could have have said an arch top guitar. Do you want to tell me they're different too?
Like I asked you to consider, every instrument is different. Every scenario is different.
I look for 2 good edges. There isn't always a third. If there is, then wonderful. Just remember that I work on all kinds of instruments, not just classical guitars, often in various states of repair, so I'm faced with very different scenarios to that of a builder following a plan. I'm lucky if I have one flat surface to work with, never mind three.
If you want to put your nuts in tight, go right ahead. It's very possible your degree of contact might be exactly the same as mine, but I don't class it as tight. I just class it as a good fit. I don't want a tingly fit.
RE: burning Bridges, NUTS on fire an... (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Firefrets
If you wanted to discuss nuts, why didn't you just ask? The subject can get quite deep, and we can't cover ever angle in a quick well meant reply. I'm not sure how quoting me slightly out of context is helpful.
Trevor just reiterates what I said - "Against the step in the fingerboard". He's also referring to his own build design.
I mentioned the violin as it is easy to picture, and regardless of the mechanics it's still a nut at the end of the fingerboard. I could have have said an arch top guitar. Do you want to tell me they're different too?
Like I asked you to consider, every instrument is different. Every scenario is different.
I look for 2 good edges. There isn't always a third. If there is, then wonderful. Just remember that I work on all kinds of instruments, not just classical guitars, often in various states of repair, so I'm faced with very different scenarios to that of a builder following a plan. I'm lucky if I have one flat surface to work with, never mind three.
If you want to put your nuts in tight, go right ahead. It's very possible your degree of contact might be exactly the same as mine, but I don't class it as tight. I just class it as a good fit. I don't want a tingly fit.
It was going too far on my personal guitar thread and you kept bringing it up, so I started a new topic. I’m not that interested in talking about nuts, at this point.
What I would say is, you have your methodology and if it works for you then good. If someone challenges me in the shop about whether it makes the guitar perform better, I’d make a new nut that fits tight and let the customer decide by trial of the new nut. It’s that simple.
I’m not interested in an anecdotal fight about this subject.
RE: burning Bridges, NUTS on fire an... (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Firefrets
Trevor just reiterates what I said - "Against the step in the fingerboard". He's also referring to his own build design.
You misquoted the text and changed the meaning. He means tight in the nut slot on all three surfaces that touch the slot; bottom of slot, headplate side, and fingerboard face.
If you need clarification, email Trevor. He usually answers email questions, I asked him a question via email about 6 or 7 years ago and he gave me a couple paragraph explanation of the situation I was trying to learn about, which dealt with intonation and overtone activity. He helped me solve the problem in my building and it included doing double and triple checks on four things: compensation at saddle, whether or not the fret ends were solidly seat in the fret slot, and nut and saddle stability in regards to tight fit. After I asked if I could send him some money for the lesson, he said no mate, just pay me by purchasing my books. Which I did.
Every person I’ve studied with, including tutoring and encouragement from Brune’ has emphasized checking saddle, fret, nut condition for tight fit. That includes the two years I worked in a certified Martin repair shop in Oakland under Stew Port, who learned from Matt Umanov in NY -
I have the guitar making education to say this stuff with reasonable certainty, but really email Trevor Gore for a consultation.
RE: burning Bridges, NUTS on fire an... (in reply to estebanana)
I detect a slight insecurity that you need to outline your experience. You should probably delete this thread. I can tell by how you interpret what I write as to how much experience you have. You do you. I'll do me.
RE: burning Bridges, NUTS on fire an... (in reply to Firefrets)
Wow! I told you to stop posting about your idea about fitting nuts on my other thread, I said twice, I wasn’t interested in a beef about nuts, but you kept on so I moved the discussion because it didn’t belong there. It’s a separate topic and it needs separate post. This thread will stand as a discussion of nuts and bridges.
You also said we should get someone involved that could explain the physics of it, so I pulled out ‘The Book’ written by the engineering guys. You accelerated the friction and I’m not insecure about my nuts in the least.
As for your "This thread will stand as a discussion of nuts and bridges" comment , I think what you should have said is "This thread will stand as a testament to a bruised ego" as that's all it is.
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RE: burning Bridges, NUTS on fire an... (in reply to estebanana)
please, on behalf of players, Luthiers, don't glue deez nuts in the slots. Some of us like to shift them up so the high E string does not get yanked off the edge. I tell students change strings one at a time, and if you need to clean the fingerboard or for some other reason remove all 6, then use a tiny bit of scotch tape to hold deez nuts in place. They should just fall out without strings, too tight I can imagine is dangerous since wood likes to crack. Break angle and other physics are negligible if you have just a small bit of contact the energy gets transferred from string to guitar, I have done some experiments. Even break angle zero over a saddle...tie block transfers plenty of sound energy it seems.Also I tried NO saddle and the guitar still sounds pretty normal
As for your "This thread will stand as a discussion of nuts and bridges" comment , I think what you should have said is "This thread will stand as a testament to a bruised ego" as that's all it is.
You need a good look in the mirror.
This is the most ‘Ruphus / Professor’ gaslighting energy I’ve seen in more than five years. lol 😆
RE: burning Bridges, NUTS on fire an... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
please, on behalf of players, Luthiers, don't glue deez nuts in the slots. Some of us like to shift them up so the high E string does not get yanked off the edge. I tell students change strings one at a time, and if you need to clean the fingerboard or for some other reason remove all 6, then use a tiny bit of scotch tape to hold deez nuts in place. They should just fall out without strings, too tight I can imagine is dangerous since wood likes to crack. Break angle and other physics are negligible if you have just a small bit of contact the energy gets transferred from string to guitar, I have done some experiments. Even break angle zero over a saddle...tie block transfers plenty of sound energy it seems.Also I tried NO saddle and the guitar still sounds pretty normal
Now, put you nuts to the wall!!
Deez nuts are never glued in my shop. That’s like using ketchup on a steak. I don’t really care of your nuts fall out of the slot or are subtly friction fit, but my nuts fit precisely and are not some ‘hot dog in a hallway’ random loose goose situation.
At my house when we prepare poultry, I assure you we choke our own chickens for quality assurance. I support deez nuts.
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