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"Thumb Only" Technique
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 RE: "Thumb Only" Technique (in reply to Ron.M)
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Well....
Seems like a good idea to go back to the root of this message  .
I´m the same as Ron. I have my ups and downs in my playing, and when I hit the downs, I always play a lot of thumb. It is the base of everything, and it is what makes it sound "flamenco" in my ears.
Besides that it has a very inspiring feel. There something in this hammering with the thumb using the wrist on a string. It sounds cool and feels good. 
When I´m having an up period in my playing I play everything and enjoy it all.
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Date Apr. 27 2006 6:45:15
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RE: "Thumb Only" Technique (in reply to Ron.M)
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oy oy oy
You guys like spending time in front of the computer discussing words.
Sorry, I havent got the time or energy to read these posts, so I leave you in peace. 
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Date Apr. 27 2006 10:15:45
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: "Thumb Only" Technique (in reply to Ricardo)
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Ricardo,
Yeah..it was mainly tongue in cheek as you guessed.
But, there is a more serious aspect...
This is a site which pulls in a lot of folk who have heard Flamenco guitar for the first time, or who have made the first steps.
I've read a few "helpful" posts which have gone along the lines of..
"Yeah..the big rolling Sabicas style rasgueados aren't done anymore. Today the new players play with a lighter touch...maybe a bit of m,i,i,i or a,i,i,i.. etc "
To me this is a drastic generalisation.
I don't know when it started (I'm sure you'll know better on this), but I was a big fan of Vincente in the early 90's.
I loved his minimalistic/direct, very poetic kind of style and the use of these light "tinkling" rasgueados in the middle of phrases.
Since then, (since everybody loved it too, obviously) guitarristas have adopted that into their style....but Vincente is still the master of this way of playing IMO.
The guy is a guitar genius!
(He can still play pretty powerful rasgueado...but that seems to be ignored somehow.)
OK...back to reality.
My main concern would be that newcomers see the old style Sabicas/Early Paco stuff as being "over" now.
This is the "new" way of doing it.
So folk maybe strive to get that gentle tinkling tone instead of just trying to learn "generic" stuff, which would me more appropriate for that stage IMO.
It's great as a "device", but not something to base your general rasgueado technique on IMO.
On the uploads question..yeah I've heard it on this site.
Ricardo, I don't have a "crack" at folk doing their best, given the information they've got.
Do you really think that's where I'm at?
Would "modern" maybe cover folk say like Tomatito?
He is getting on a bit now...must be in his '40s maybe?
Sure..he can tinkle a bit and be very intimate and make the guitar weep too.
But on his Camaron accompaniment he can also play rasgueado like he's practically gonna bust the strings!
So what I'm saying, especially to the newcomer, is that it is not true that everything is "al aire" now with moody tinkling tones.
I saw your teacher Gerardo in Dundee last year as you know.
Sure he played incredibly delicate and intricate and breathtakingly virtuoso stuff which just wowed me out.
BUT..he intersperced the concert with a couple of "down home" Bulerias, with Carmen Cortes dancing, in which he was ripping the guitar up like the best of them!
The guy was really slammin' the guitar!
Even the (mainly) Classical audience were jaw dropped and tapping their feet!!
So don't let's say that the "al aire" light style is the "modern" way of playing, lest we misinform folk out there.
My own advice to beginners would be...
Listen a lot and don't follow any particular guitarist's style.
(I'll probably get death threats now when folk have managed to "decode" the "hidden" meanings behind this post.  )
cheers
Ron
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Date Apr. 27 2006 20:41:41
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Ricardo
Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: "Thumb Only" Technique (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
I don't know when it started (I'm sure you'll know better on this), but I was a big fan of Vincente in the early 90's.
I loved his minimalistic/direct, very poetic kind of style and the use of these light "tinkling" rasgueados in the middle of phrases.
Oh ok, I know where you are coming from. I feel Vicente leaves a lot of spaces and does dynamics on the soft side. Tomatito and others too lately, but honestly I find his rasguedos very hard driving at times, very sharp and attacking. In fact that is sort of the point of his "tinkling", to let the rasgueados that are powerfull and sharp have more drama, more impact.
Yeah there is a general trend to more dynamic (suave or wimpy?) playing. But I am not always comfortable with generalizations. That is why some confusion results. For example, Tio Arango, Reina de Silia, Mandaito, the two bulerias on the latest CD by Vicente Amigo, have some very powerful and sharp rasgueado statements. On the other hand Nunez's Trafalgar only has 2 very short rasgueados (mii) in the whole piece. But to say that nowadays THE way to rasgueados is to "tinkle", yeah that is not fair. There was some "tinkling" going on in the old days too. Depends on the specific thing required. You can't "tinkle" for a dancer regardless if you play modern or trad.
Ricardo
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Date Apr. 28 2006 6:09:54
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Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
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RE: "Thumb Only" Technique (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
I've read a few "helpful" posts which have gone along the lines of..
"Yeah..the big rolling Sabicas style rasgueados aren't done anymore. Today the new players play with a lighter touch...maybe a bit of m,i,i,i or a,i,i,i.. etc "
To me this is a drastic generalisation.
Generalisation is always risky, but IMO technique has moved on and modern guitarists go for cleanly articulated separated strokes where as the older school tend to get more of a rolling sound. Just listen to just about any modern Alegria intro compas - Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-dah... as opposed to Brrrrrrrr-rah. I have some Tomatito and some Sabicas on my desk and the difference is obvious.
However, I wouldn't describe the modern players as playing with a lighter touch, except maybe in their solo works. But to me this is often about 'hinting' or 'implying' lines - referencing what you might 'expect' to hear. I hear this a lot in Tomatitos playing.
Plenty of power when they want to though, even with the clean articulation -a good example would be the end rasgueo sequence of Tio Arango; clean lines, but very powerful.
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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
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Date Apr. 28 2006 10:05:42
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Ricardo
Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: "Thumb Only" Technique (in reply to Jon Boyes)
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quote:
Generalisation is always risky, but IMO technique has moved on and modern guitarists go for cleanly articulated separated strokes where as the older school tend to get more of a rolling sound. Just listen to just about any modern Alegria intro compas - Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-dah... as opposed to Brrrrrrrr-rah. I have some Tomatito and some Sabicas on my desk and the difference is obvious.
This has moved from THUMB only, to rasgueados...but it is Ron's fault!
I feel that the specific technique of da da da da da, separated rhythmic strokes vs Brrrrrr typical 5 stroke rolls, is a personal playing choice and not necessarily a new or "modern" technique idea. I mean the technique of separate strokes is not new, even though the modern trend is to NOT do the 5 stroke brushing rasg. much (in agreement with your statement).
Listen to Esteban Sanlucar's Soleares (maestros de la guitarra flamenca vol. 3 of the 6 vol. series) for example. He does clear separated strokes, probably amii, just like tomatito and the rest, and that was during Sabicas era. Even Sabicas used separated strokes for seguiriyas quite frequently. So the TECHNIQUE is not new, just the idea to not use so much the 5 stroke brushing sound. But even PDL's most modern alegrias (la barrosa has not been bumped down to "old school" by any new stuff I have heard, and his latest version is an extension of the same falseta ideas), using a mix of 5 stroke brrrrrr and separate strokes. Paco has been doing that mix since his early records. Listen to Celosa on Fantasia, brrrrrr, and da da da da in the same piece.
Ricardo
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Date Apr. 29 2006 17:48:22
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