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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)
I hate to interrupt, as I've enjoyed reading the discussion up until now, and I'm probably in over my head, however.... *(gulp)
All theory notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure that half-tone harmony is up there with octave equivalence in terms of universal non-culturally conditioned ideas. 2 notes a half-step or less apart are dissonant when played together. They beat, audibly Their combination in a system implies a meta-system and a sub-system, implies motion. Two different stacks that one can oscillate between, possibly in an ostinato form.
If we consider "por medio" and the G-minor and the Bb major, they are a major-minor pair that share notes, notes that the A major doesn't share, until you add that 2b or 9b, borrowed from the stack next door. It almost doesn't matter which scalar step you want to play a "chord" over, it's merely about which notes are involved and which stack they belong too. Chromatic neighbors are as far apart as musically possible, forget dominant function, we go next door and it's Timbuktu. Voice leading teaches us about half-step resolution, but when that leading voice carries over into the next chord, we are in new territory.
If you think of whole-tone series there's 2 of them. If you think of diminished chords there's inversions of the same 4 up and down the neck. Superimposing more limited systems on larger systems is it's own funny game.
total tangent here: Sometimes we get complicated and try to put Bela Bartok into intellectual territory when the acoustic scale is actually a reflection of the real-life physical harmonic series.
Anyone here play valved brass instruments? It's quite a trip to compare where in the harmonic series each system is in relation to the others. There are multiple valve combinations to achieve the same note, some closer than others, but we use our embouchure to achieve notes, like singing. I used to play F-horn, and half of this playing is fudging, singing along with the sheet music, the notes are so close together that high up the harmonic series with 10m of tube nearly, you can use your hand in the bell to fudge the rest. Sure, the way brass was written even with trumpet (wide gaps, short tube) entirely possible to play pieces written up until Wagner with no valves, just fudging it...with F-horn you can take such primitive practices into 20th century music! total non-sequitur here... sorry :D
Anyway, I see the inclusion of both 3rds, and of the 2b/9b as implying movement and a metascale, not a literal invitation to just pile everything into all voicings always... it's modal, 2 different F chord voicings in a soléa are different, as the base is common but the differences are what matters. see, my trancey button pushing wasn't completely useless, lol. this entire thing should be thought of texturally.
I also agree with Beni2 that open-string accidents account for a lot. seeing as how the guitar is one principle pillar of this culture. I may just be paraphrasing/stealing without attribution, as he also proposed a meta-scale and the usage of sub-scales of it in a modal fashion. (maybe i added the last part: i see 2 modes intertwined that one moves between. 2 stacks)
I'd like to echo what I understood as El Burdo's expressed sentiment that if it sounds too complicated, it probably is. If you hear some confounding note borrowing, it's possibly an artifact... maybe the accompaniment was not completely following the vocal melody, maybe the player liked a certain chord voicing, maybe they are just moving the same shape around like a rock player sliding power chords (often in bulerias) for emotional effect like "here we go nuts"
Ramon Montoya was a cattle trader who bought his first guitar around age 18. Whatever feverish practice regime the flamencos have that enabled them to often be virtuoso-level players is not about music-theoretical underpinnings. There's a simple system at play here. If you ask around, traditionally (until lately) there's not much explanation, you learn by jumping in and doing. They give you the gist "it's a marcha in Sol Re with some Do" 1-2-3 go. You pick up on certain musical oddities as "essential flavor" or "attitude" like youths pick up on blues-guitar bends, intuitively, by example.
If you know what a music is supposed to sound like, you can try to achieve that.
ok, I'll hand the mic back to the educated folks.
what was that quote about "talking about music is like dancing about poetry" when Sr. Martins has the point here, let's hear it :D
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
a meta-scale and the usage of sub-scales of it in a modal fashion
I get that, and it is used often as a description. But the idea of that would be to stick to the darn meta scale and not change it. That includes chords and incidental chromatics. But when you look back then at basic Tonal music in a major key, the “meta scale” is the full chromatic. More often, if you want to think “simple function”, the “away chord” and the “Home” chord, well, the music will utilize all the fun meta notes during the “away” chord moments. That is why we have cadences. In minor key, that is why we change scales deliberately. In fact if you decide to do only certain notes for some modal chord and certain other notes for the next chord, rather than a collective share of the meta scale regardless which chord, then you are probably NOT doing modes but some sort of tension and release like cadences offer. Ionian mode is the unique mode that offers the traditional cadence without a fancy scale alteration, so it stands as the basis of tonality. Minor key is different, and flamenco is like minor but still different. The cadence is the huge part of flamenco, we call it “remate” and if you don’t let the music do that, even at least rhythmically, then sure, you end up with meta scale fakemenco, which would actually be the better concept or example of modal music. And there are plenty of example of that sort of thing starting with Miles Davis “Flamenco Sketches” on through ottmar leibert. Steering students AWAY from the dark path of fakemenco might just start at the cross roads of modality and tonality as concepts.
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to aaron peacock)
possibly ignorant/irrelevant question: Did y'all notice the tendency for (real, not fake) flamenco to sound rather "messy" with multiple guitarists in ensemble? Something about differences and incompatibilities in the harmonic compas?
(where "remate" is the same and synced, typically, certain steps sound 'hairier' than others, in terms of elaboration superimposition collision)
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to aaron peacock)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aaron peacock
possibly ignorant/irrelevant question: Did y'all notice the tendency for (real, not fake) flamenco to sound rather "messy" with multiple guitarists in ensemble? Something about differences and incompatibilities in the harmonic compas?
(where "remate" is the same and synced, typically, certain steps sound 'hairier' than others, in terms of elaboration superimposition collision)
Well...not sure what is the specific thing you refer to. In fakemenco they usually copy the rumba improvisation formula...that is a chart of specific chords that cycle. In flamenco, when accompanying say baile or even cante, the chords might utterly clash (Bb against A, or C7 against A etc bad stuff) because the guitar is free to express compas in various ways ... the only time they get it together is actually at the brief moment of remate. I recently gave the example of the morao brothers accompanying Chozas. The rhythm is together but not the chords....that is why when flamenco guitars play together it is important to work it out exactly down to the last compas. Even Paco and Tomatito had the occasional clash on the last couple Camaron albums.
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
The chord is D7/F#...and normally we play A open so you can see and name it correctly, but in this case the 5th is omitted. The root is D. That is why circle of 5th is helpful to see the bigger picture.
Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for not putting it in context from the get go. D in the bass, duh! I knew I was missing something. I have the circle memorized, but I’m not seeing the big picture yet. I did run through A aeolian and C melodic minor and see what you mean about context I think.
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to JasonM)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonM
quote:
The chord is D7/F#...and normally we play A open so you can see and name it correctly, but in this case the 5th is omitted. The root is D. That is why circle of 5th is helpful to see the bigger picture.
Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for not putting it in context from the get go. D in the bass, duh! I knew I was missing something. I have the circle memorized, but I’m not seeing the big picture yet. I did run through A aeolian and C melodic minor and see what you mean about context I think.
When naming chord tones start with stacking thirds first...try not to repeat note names unless octave or unison is in the voicing. Whatever is on bottom in the stack is probably root.
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo (Modern key developed first by David Serva) mi bemol flamenco/Si mayor/Sol sostonido menor (5#) Minera sol sostonido flamenco/Mi mayor/do sostonido menor (4#) Rondeña (altered tuning montoya invention) do sostonido flamenco (Velez invention)/La mayor/Fa sostonido menor (3#) Por Levante (Taranta) Fa sostonido flamenco/Re mayor/si menor (2#) Por Granaina Si flamenco/Sol mayor/mi menor (1#) Por Arriba mi flamenco/Do mayor/La menor (0#/b) Por medio La flamenco/Fa mayor/re menor (1b) Por abajo re flamenco/Si bemol mayor/sol menor (2b)
EDIT: forgot to add that the 4 missing key centers (Sol-do-Fa-si bemol flamenco and their relative majors/minors)
I've been meaning to do this for a while, so here's the 'Flamenco Circle of Fifths'. Please let me know what needs to be changed or fixed. Once it's finalized I'd also post a link to the pdf version.
And we have been plagiarized finally.
See here at 1:17
and here 13:30
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
Their copy seems too identical to be a coincidence? If so they did choose to leave this part out of their direct copy!
They used Kitarist's same fonts etc....it is literally they grabbed our image then changed the color to orange (notice the fading effect as well) and blocked out our copyright. I have my own slightly improved version coming out in the Mel bay volume 3.
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to orsonw)
So their reply to my comment (I suspect they will delete these comments eventually)
"The idea of illustrating the relationship between relative major and minor keys using a circular diagram dates back to the earliest classical harmony literature. Including the flamenco mode in that context is not a groundbreaking discovery on your part, as this relationship was recognized many decades ago. It’s simply a matter of placing the flamenco mode in relation to major and minor tonalities using a well-established circular framework."
My response: "Of course. Just pointing out our literal diagram was copied, fonts and all...just the color was changed. Before we made that thing while discussing the topic in an open chat, there was not existing a pictorial example of the exact thing with that language we used to translate "toque Levante" etc., which is why one of us created the image rather than link to one. We deserve at least the credit for creating the original image which was (c) 2021 foroflamenco.com."
And their response on the second video, in spanish: Dear Richard: Aside from winning one of the most prestigious awards in flamenco guitar, Gabriel Expósito has formally studied classical and flamenco guitar since childhood and has been teaching at the conservatory for many years. I can assure you that he doesn't need to turn to any forum for ideas on harmony."
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I can assure you that he doesn't need to turn to any forum for ideas on harmony.
And yet, he did, and stole the literal pictorial work while removing the copyright notice from it and attempting to hide this theft by changing the colours - because acknowledging the original authors was too provincial for such an esteemed individual. Shameful behaviour and pathetic attempts at obfuscation of what is obvious and documented evidence. Also, ideas may not be copyrightable, but the concrete work is. All that was needed was an acknowledgement. Some others even ask for permission to use it - the horrors.
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to kitarist)
looks like they are leaving my original comments but deleting my replies requesting credit to the image be applied.
They added to the response of the second video:
"That said, congratulations on sharing this approach, because it is indeed an interesting tool for understanding harmony.".
Someone pointed out they built theirs from "scratch" because they left out "sostenido" and put "#" instead.
Then they added a comment which is pretty rude:
"RicardoMarlowFlamenco seems to believe he's made a groundbreaking discovery for which he hasn’t received credit. Just to clarify: the use of circular diagrams to illustrate the relationship between relative major and minor keys is a well-established concept dating back to early classical harmony literature."
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to kitarist)
I dropped my final reply in the second video, maybe they will delete it, who knows.
" @onlineflamenco "ground breaking". Nice. Our creation is a TRANSLATION of concept for guitar students and enthusiasts....those that perhaps already had a back ground on the normal circle of 5ths relations. You guys took our image and created your own perhaps, but when you changed the translation "Fa SOSTENIDO" to "F#", you missed the point of the translation VERBALLY...which was the terms used in flamenco lexicon (por ejemplo) "Por Levante, Taranta, y Fa Sostenido flamenco", are used by the professionals and relate the tonality to the Copla in D major, and falsetas in B minor, etc. The concept is universal and there is no issue at all with you guys using it...however, translations are copyrightable creative works....and since you copied ours I don't see an issue with simply dropping the time stamp and (c) 2021 foroflamenco.com in your video description. That is how legitimate academic work is done. Saludos."
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to aaron peacock)
I didn’t find this thread until today. I read it. It’s fortunate for me I didn’t get run through that oddball convoluted mess of Arabic/turkish stuff when I began studying guitar and listening to cante. It’s just not true, and it’s so strange that non Gitano people clutch at it, as if they’d do anything except learn palos and tonos.
I hear distinct disconnections from Arabic and Turkish music, what is it about the western mind that is compelled to see this and build columns to hold up these ideas? I studied with an art historian who taught from Robert Ferris Thompson’s books, an African cultural historian from Yale. Thompson made comparisons between the development of the blues in the US and the rituals of Yoruba culture in west Africa. He pointed out possible remnants of Yoruba ritual compositions ( order in which rituals were conducted and blues forms, but he didn’t try to prop up a system of direct steps of one thing leading to another because it’s not possible to know how the parts of Yoruba were moved to the Americas and pushed underground, reinvented, hidden, changed or reemerge later. It seems like these tedious microscopic transcriptions of note for note chord for chord equivalent explanations don’t consider the same dislocations and series of changes music goes through, as Ferris-Thompson does.
Have two college degrees, I’m not that smart, but after I recieved the last degree in 1998 I went to Spain for the second time. The first thing I noticed about flamenco is that the people who do it are better at music than American academics. I kept saying to myself, an academic cannot map this out, it’s too fragile and too intricate at the same time.
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Thompson made comparisons between the development of the blues in the US and the rituals of Yoruba culture in west Africa. He pointed out possible remnants of Yoruba ritual compositions ( order in which rituals were conducted and blues forms, but he didn’t try to prop up a system of direct steps of one thing leading to another because it’s not possible to know how the parts of Yoruba were moved to the Americas and pushed underground, reinvented, hidden, changed or reemerge later.
It is a bit off topic, but I came across a quote I grabbed that is related to this. First of all, Romerito made it clear to me years ago that unlike paleontology, you don't have the luxury of leaving gaps in the fossil record in the field of musicology. You have to move back in time slowly. In an academic article about the disappearance of the Phrygian tonal center the term "chain of replications" was used often. It requires the soft science of claiming music form x is related to music form y to have STRONG direct evidence...not jawbone fragments and camp fire remains.
So the quote I found relates to blues development from William Francis Allen in the preface to "Slave Songs of the United States, 1867", and to me relates to Gitanos and their natural ability to pick up local Western music traditions:
"The negroes keep exquisite time in singing, and do not suffer themselves to be daunted by any obstacle in the words. The most obstinate Scripture phrases or snatches from hymns they will force to do duty with any tune they please, and will dash heroically through a trochaic tune at the head of a column of iambs with wonderful skill".
It implies that rather than adhere to some ancient African musical tradition, they enjoyed the freedom of interpreting local church music (strongly European Western music), and deliberately molding it to their liking with advanced (natural) rhythmic sophistication... back in the 1800's so it was observed. The Gitano tradition in Spain being hardly different at all, from my new perspective.
And a related counter example to the above, the super white Pennsylvania "Amish" people sing their old church music super darn slow and non-rhythmically. In the 1940's it was discovered via a transcription made by an Amish member that had gone to school for music, that his church had preserved 400 year old hymn tune melodies from Dutch/German Ana Baptist tradition, using only text from the Ausbund hymnal, and oral tradition. The melodies were rendered unrecognizable due to slow expression interlaced with "melismas" connecting the melodic guide notes of the original tune melodies, and this was lead by a chief singer. It took them like 3 hours to get through one hymn. Once it was observed on paper, the connection to a 400 year old origin was obvious. (see George Pullen Jackson, 1945, "The strange Music of the Old Order Amish").
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
Thompson made comparisons between the development of the blues in the US and the rituals of Yoruba culture in west Africa. He pointed out possible remnants of Yoruba ritual compositions ( order in which rituals were conducted and blues forms, but he didn’t try to prop up a system of direct steps of one thing leading to another because it’s not possible to know how the parts of Yoruba were moved to the Americas and pushed underground, reinvented, hidden, changed or reemerge later.
It is a bit off topic, but I came across a quote I grabbed that is related to this. First of all, Romerito made it clear to me years ago that unlike paleontology, you don't have the luxury of leaving gaps in the fossil record in the field of musicology. You have to move back in time slowly. In an academic article about the disappearance of the Phrygian tonal center the term "chain of replications" was used often. It requires the soft science of claiming music form x is related to music form y to have STRONG direct evidence...not jawbone fragments and camp fire remains.
So the quote I found relates to blues development from William Francis Allen in the preface to "Slave Songs of the United States, 1867", and to me relates to Gitanos and their natural ability to pick up local Western music traditions:
"The negroes keep exquisite time in singing, and do not suffer themselves to be daunted by any obstacle in the words. The most obstinate Scripture phrases or snatches from hymns they will force to do duty with any tune they please, and will dash heroically through a trochaic tune at the head of a column of iambs with wonderful skill".
It implies that rather than adhere to some ancient African musical tradition, they enjoyed the freedom of interpreting local church music (strongly European Western music), and deliberately molding it to their liking with advanced (natural) rhythmic sophistication... back in the 1800's so it was observed. The Gitano tradition in Spain being hardly different at all, from my new perspective.
And a related counter example to the above, the super white Pennsylvania "Amish" people sing their old church music super darn slow and non-rhythmically. In the 1940's it was discovered via a transcription made by an Amish member that had gone to school for music, that his church had preserved 400 year old hymn tune melodies from Dutch/German Ana Baptist tradition, using only text from the Ausbund hymnal, and oral tradition. The melodies were rendered unrecognizable due to slow expression interlaced with "melismas" connecting the melodic guide notes of the original tune melodies, and this was lead by a chief singer. It took them like 3 hours to get through one hymn. Once it was observed on paper, the connection to a 400 year old origin was obvious. (see George Pullen Jackson, 1945, "The strange Music of the Old Order Amish").
I feel like you’re corroborating my observation. However paleontology doesn’t love imprecision in the fossil evidence, it’s a game of generations of paleontologists working to create timelines.
Black music in America went through western church music and came out a winner. And it’s valid parallel between flamenco and black music because both cultures were written out of history by a dominant non black or non gitsno culture. For me the imprecision of being able to track it isn’t a quandary, it’s a thing to accept as a beautiful mystery.
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RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I feel like you’re corroborating my observation.
yes, but a sensitive issue is the point about the Western music being a major filter. The problem is "interpretation" is often downplayed in favor of "creation" when in fact, the opposite is true, or can be true in most cases. By that I mean, the "white" creation can be used to belittle the interpretation of it, even if the final result is vastly superior or sophisticated. I see this subtle thing in the literature concerning the Gitano contribution. This is not good. But unfortunately, to counter this, some folks want to circumvent the "creation" or the big "white filter" altogether and erroneously push some false equivalence to an ethnic creative origin (hence the "orientalist" stereotype and push for exotic phrygian scales or vocalizations).
A good case in point, the gypsy hot jazz of Django and his Gitano clan has created a genre completely independent from the origins of the "standards" they use as a blank canvas for their expression. Meaning the final result is "Gitano" far removed from neither the "whiteness" of the European western musical forms, nor the "blackness" of the African American blues and jazz creations. Simply put the interpretation is no small filter itself, especially when an entire genre can be defined by the interpretation no matter if a song is created or interpreted within the repertoire.
RE: Flamenco Circle of Fifths (RE: F... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
I feel like you’re corroborating my observation.
yes, but a sensitive issue is the point about the Western music being a major filter. The problem is "interpretation" is often downplayed in favor of "creation" when in fact, the opposite is true, or can be true in most cases. By that I mean, the "white" creation can be used to belittle the interpretation of it, even if the final result is vastly superior or sophisticated. I see this subtle thing in the literature concerning the Gitano contribution. This is not good. But unfortunately, to counter this, some folks want to circumvent the "creation" or the big "white filter" altogether and erroneously push some false equivalence to an ethnic creative origin (hence the "orientalist" stereotype and push for exotic phrygian scales or vocalizations).
A good case in point, the gypsy hot jazz of Django and his Gitano clan has created a genre completely independent from the origins of the "standards" they use as a blank canvas for their expression. Meaning the final result is "Gitano" far removed from neither the "whiteness" of the European western musical forms, nor the "blackness" of the African American blues and jazz creations. Simply put the interpretation is no small filter itself, especially when an entire genre can be defined by the interpretation no matter if a song is created or interpreted within the repertoire.
I see what you’re getting at, and this is a trendy thing with people who don’t know very much about music, or choose to overcompensate for historical wrongs done to minority groups.
I think of the Esterhazy court where Hadyn worked. In that time only the wealthy could afford to cultivate music as an art or entertainment, Hadyn had to come up with music for an upper class of ruler who were spread across Europe. It’s a fact, rich people paid composers to develop the arts of music and instrument making. Composers also drew source material from lower class musicians, Hadyn took forms and melodies from Hungarian Rom violinists more than once, this continues even to Shostakovich who drew from Russian Jewish music, an oppressed class.
If you look deeply you see the homages done by composers who took what was in the air at the time. I played cello in an orchestra in early college years, guest conductor said: “We’re very lucky these days, we’re going to play Beethoven’s first symphony ( a charmer) and when it was first played, it was to the exclusion of the ears of us common people. Now it ours to play and share.”
I know about several tedious YouTube explainers who are citing this and that in classical music is racist. This is a very American left thing. I can tell you how popular western classical music is in Asia were everyone who engages and tries to play it thrilled at the accessibility of the music. It’s among the common people, it’s not expensive to learn and it’s considered global artistic patrimony.
We have a problem in America because we keep chickening out on confrontation or recognition of our past as a slave holding nation. The white supremacy people want it to go away, it’s bothersome to average white Americans who are not white nationalists, but don’t want have extra burdens to think about. In the other post there are hyper educated people who want to explain it and push a conversation, beyond that to the opposite extreme of white nationalism are people who push narratives that are reaching for anything that excludes European origins of art culture to create their own skewed point of view. Guys & gals in the arts like you and I are just stuck in the middle.
Guilt trippers to the left of me, Neo KKK to the right, here I am stuck with falsetas in the middle with Ricardo.
Frankly both extremes of this kind of thinking are off base, but until America grows up and decides to be nakedly honest about where we come from, expect more extreme shenanigans.
I used to buy into the orientalist concept of how the west fetishized the east in the 19th century, 11 years of living in east Asia has cured me of the Orientalist theory rhetoric. It’s mostly hogwash, for a multiplicity of solid reasons, the most fun of which is that fetishization and over romanticizing the other is a vicious two way street. The folks on the far left who guilt trip people with that need to get over themselves. The far right jerks need to STFU
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