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interesting article saying the man who invented Rondeña tuning also invented por taranta and that por minera was around long before Montoya started using it.
the first recording of Ramon Montoya playing por minera referenced in the article at 46:01
Posts: 15854
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Article on origins of Rondeña t... (in reply to Aquarius)
Thanks for that. I am constantly referring to Castro Buendia's massive dissertation. Interesting to note two details in his dissertation that he touches on that would be related to this new article and "finding" but he himself is missing it (I address one below and the other in a separate post). The only issue I have with this article now is that he does not bother citing the Cantes Mineros book of Chaves and our foro friend Norman Kliman, as they have in fact done the "listening out for the minera" that he suggests. Let me first fix the order of the appearance of Minera TOQUE historically as the one mentioned appears FOURTH in 1928:
1. La Antequerana and Montoya 1922(!), Taranta 2. Vallejo and Montoya 1923, Taranta of Cojo de Malaga 3. Anjelillo and Montoya 1928 Taranta of Tonto de Linares 4. The one mentioned and showed but the style is minera de Bacalao 5. El Soto del Belmez and Montoya (1929) Taranta de El Vagonero 6. El Chato de la Venta and SABICAS (1932) same minera of Bacalao
Now it must be stated that Sabicas also plays por minera for the famous "Rondeña" mentioned of Carmen Amaya (1956 recording), however the cantes she sings relates to the cante of Torre BUT NOT NECESSARILY to this conjectured mysterious "Catalan rondeña" that Castro Buendia is taking as "truth" from these anecdotes. The melodies are clear and defined in Chaves/Kliman book in this case....Manuel Torre sings his own version of the old style of Pedro el Morato that was once called "minera" and today we call that melody the "Taranto", but this word was NOT USED BACK THEN. His other version of the same style is called "Tarantas". Carmen also sings this type of cante her own way, and references Morato in the lyric, in her "Rondeña". This is suggestion that the ALTERNATIVE TITLE sometimes used for the same song we call "Taranto", back then, was in fact "Rondeña". Why would that be the case? I have good arguments for that, starting with the fact that in the appendix of the Chavez/Kliman book they point out that the extracted cante mineros were OFTEN coupled with other cantes in performances (meaning opening cantes of Rondeña, Fandango de Lucena, Fandango de Trini, Malagueñas, etc. were omitted or ignored in this study), very much like a "cante de inicio" then some other cante minero that is more ornate such as Cartagenera or Taranta, etc. Considering the similarities of the Lucena cantes to the Taranto, I conjecture that the term "Rondeñas" would be the similar "Taranto" type melody from Ronda, where as they recognized these in Lucena and other towns by other "names" and in Almeria it was the same melody associated with the miners.
In Carmen's "Rondeña" she only sings one style of Morato (Taranto if you will) at the start and then follows up with a special Taranta of Jose la Luz repeated with different leras. This seems to be a basic continuation of a long standing tradition of blending these general "fandango" forms together, such that the MAIN melody goes first (it has a lower tessitura this Taranto or minera of Morato), then the more valiante higher pitch variations of this theme (I consider these melodies functioning as counter voicings or harmonies as they follow the same harmonic form). As late as Camarón's last album with Paco, he sings the Pedro el Morato cante first (lyrics known from Chacon) then a Cartagenera to conclude....the very very darn old way it was always done. They label the track "Tarantas" which is generally fine even if specifically incorrect or vague.
If Manolo de Huelva is remembering things correctly it is likely this "Catalan rondeña" might be yet another variant of this above tradition, singing a "Taranto type" melody as the initiate then follow it up with other styles. The fact he used a special tuning relates to this just fine but I will get to that in a follow up post. What I want to point out that Castro has missed is that in his dissertation he gives an honorable mention to classical guitarist Tomas Damas and his arrangement of a Zarzuela by C. Oudrid (Flemish blooded Piano player) in 1867 in F# phrygian, called "Rondeña Nueva". He dismisses the relevance to his research stating it is in "B minor" which tells me he only looked at the starting and ending chords of the piece. This is a mistake even I have made in the past, and he did not engage with internal structure and coplas. This piece actually follows the form of the copla that relates to cantes mineros RATHER than the typical "fandango" style coplas we normally are familiar with in this era from other sources. (basically the normal thing is Malagueña's with Abandolao compas). The distinction is how the melody emphasizes the "wrong" notes to the basic copla, and further, there is introduced accidentals to the key (namely the typical C natural or D7 chord, the G# or E7, even E# appears before the resolution to F#.), and there is MORE THAN ONE COPLA, one of which follows close the descending melody and harmony of the Cartagenera (style Camaron does I mentioned, though the older Chacon manner of delivery). And for sure he has a repeat phrase that introduces the cadential F# phrygian theme.
It seems clear that the the "nueva" concept at the time was that this term "Rondeña" is also applying to a DIFFERENT formal structure than the typical one. Damas using D major Copla and F# finalis for these songs, even though instrumental, implies this "key" of "toque de Levante" was possibly known to guitar players ALREADY and inspired these classical guys to basically imitate the sound very closely. Early recordings by Gandulla and Montoya reveal they used this key, talking 1909. This "Rondeña Nueva" 1867 piece was arrange by Corey Whitehead and appears in our Mel bay book "Flamenco/Classical tradition vol. 2". For anybody interested.
So while all that sounds complex, the simple thing to take away is that the Rondeña and the Taranto are closely linked melodically despite the different titles (Minera too), and the guitar key might also have been an older concept as well, than the period being looked at. Now I will address the tuning of Rondeña separately.
Posts: 15854
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Article on origins of Rondeña t... (in reply to Aquarius)
My journey into "flamencology" and investigating origins began with this tuning issue. It was Gamboa, cited in the article in reference to Borrull, who I had issues with regarding methods of investigation. He went on anecdotes of people like Pepe de la Matrona, who may or may not really understand what the tuning thing was. He questioned Montoya creating these forms "in a vacuum", which is good, however, "creation" could only mean "falsetas" not formal structure itself. I agree it makes little sense that in 1928 he walked into the recording studio with Salmeron and said, "look I am gonna play in a weird key for your Taranta, don't mind me...", if this formal structure had not already been part of the lexicon of these artists to some degree. [Based on experience, cantores might get upset when they hear some exotic tonality before singing their first notes].
However Gamboa proceeded this way: Arcas had a "Rondeña"....a score that can easily reveal has nothing to do with the tuning or song of the cante mineros. Next, Arcas had students that send this Rondeña (unrelated) concept to Llobet eventually, who taught Borrull. Matrona confirms the confirmation bias (of Gamboa) that Borrull had a "Rondeña guitar solo" (despite never recording a single cante with minera nor Rondeña tuning, so we are to believe Montoya learned it from HIM then beat him to the punch by recording with these first?). We have no clue without hard evidence what any of this means!
Now Castro Buendia is going off of more anecdotes. yes the guy was blind, but guess what? Montoya admitted in his interview in Paris that he learned much of his toque from BLIND STREET GUITARISTS in Madrid, because the gitanos in his clan were closed and secretive, even his dad would not show him the chords. I often suspected that blind guitarists have a different "world view" of the instrument and it could have been some sort of "thing" or tradition to simply tune a guitar that way. So in a funny way, I don't doubt this blind guy in Barcelona also had this method for his guitar and if his relatives were musically knowledgeable and recognized the sound in the toque of Sabicas, then it is likely very true that this guy actually used it, and likely for Rondeñas which are linked to the cante mineros anyway (as I laid out earlier). But how can someone claim to have invented something that ALREADY EXISTED IN SPAIN? The answer is only two ways: convergent evolution i.e. a rather bizarre coincidence....or....a long standing, almost "extinct" tradition that was rescued from oblivion by a select few in this mysterious "flamenco culture", (reminding flamenco means "flemish" literally), culminating in the early recordings of Montoya for posterity (which also becomes the "origin" point for subsequent generations of tocaores). Perhaps flamencos being visual learners, the unique tuning preservation was in part due to these blind maestros learning aurally and experimentally rather than the sighted that used por medio por arriba fingerings? Just a thought.
So here is what Castro Missed in his own dissertation. He managed to identify and correlate a phrygian melody used in 1552 by D. Pisador, arranged for voice and vihuela, so our ancient "Polo tobalo" as preserved by cantores. By correlate, I mean a single line of verse he sees as relevant. What he missed is the Flemish mass of Josquin in tabulated in C# phrygian (capo 3 if you will) called "la sol fa re mi", in the same Pisador book, that correlates quite closely to Monotya's famous toque, and further, despite the slightly different tuning (6 is E not D), the movement of the Sanctus is recommend to further drop the 6 to D, correlating precisely to the Rondeña tuning and key. Here is the link to this piece: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=219083&appid=&p=&mpage=5&key=pisador&tmode=&smode=&s=#359508
Now that is not the ONLY "rondeña" in the repertoire, as I discuss in that thread there are 6 others Fuenllana (all in D major but the internal tuning and mechanics are related) has published in 1554 Sevilla. So there was a tradition, very old, but already Spanish and "flemish" by design. Fuenllana is from Madrid and was also blind. I admit pure coincidence for all this, but reinventing the wheel doesn't change the facts it was already an option on the table. There is a lot more musical correlations in this repertoire which I discuss in that thread, so it not just about this one tuning and how it functions modally for Spanish singers. So the coincidences, for me, keep piling up.
RE: Article on origins of Rondeña t... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Manuel Torre sings his own version of the old style of Pedro el Morato that was once called "minera" and today we call that melody the "Taranto"
Is this the one you refer to, today called taranto, although named rondeña on video description? This is the one baile typically uses?
EDIT Ricardo I found some of your previous thoughts regarding Cante Levantinos, Cante de La Mina, tarantos etc.. on old threads. I'll quote them here for anyone else interested.
From 2016: "The only reason for argument is because two different folks might be talking about BAILE or Guitar or Cante, and they are three different contexts for the same words.
Cante: Taranto and Taranta are different melodies of the same family, normally all thought of as FREE of compas. Others in the family include cartageneras, levanticas, mineras, fandango minero, etc, collectively refered to as cantes de La Mina....cantes de La Mina are a specific group of songs that fall under the umbrella of Cantes Levantinos that also include Malagueñas and Granainas. IMO, I group them all together as basically specific melodies that follow the form of Malagueñas, which itself is a form derived from Fandangos. So it's all really just special fandangos, but the accompanying guitar will use either the tonos F#, G#, or B phyrgian instead of E or A. Even you can hear old Malagueñas or Granainas of Chacon accompanied in F# or B the same as cantes de La Mina typically are.
BAILE: Taranto is the title given to a dance that rhythmically follows a form similar to Tientos-tangos dance form. That being a binary rhythm that will speed up into tangos or even rumba as an ending. The main difference is the letras sung in the early slow portion of the dance can be any of the Cante de La Mina family. Taranto is the most stripped down melodically in the family, so it is most often chosen as the primary letra to force into what is basically a tiento type compas. Although it need not be the only melody used, it's dominance as the chosen song makes the title of the dance form obvious. I have accompanied the dance with no Taranto melody used at all (cartageneras and levanticas works beautifully). The guitar will accompany in the tonos it normally would for the Cante de La Mina (F#,G#, or B like Granainas all work fine depend on vocal range of singer), and later transpose what is done for Tangos or Rumba into that key.
Guitar:Taranta is the free rhythmic form most often used for Cante de La Minas accompaniment, traditionally in F# Phrygian. So guitar solos reflect this by name. Taranto guitar solo may invoke the rhythms of the BAILE, but can also be free or a mix. In that sense you might have ambiguity that is often argued about. Minera by name means G# to a guitarist but for a singer it is arbitrary as I said early, F# G# or B can be used for the cantes de La Mina. If there is a mixing of styles (Camaron always did this for example) you won't be changing keys, so only one name is often used to describe the Cante, usually the first one sung. So you might find Camaron singing Taranto and Cartageneras with Tomatito accompanying por mineras (G#), and the title could be just "Taranta", "Taranto", or "Minera" depending on WHO is doing the labeling (dance enthusiast, singing enthusiast or guitar enthusiast respecively).
So there are different mentalities depending on the context. I want to also mention that similar to what we recently discussed about Fandangos personales, that being compas of Solea or fandango de huelva might underlie a loose melody (fandango de Gloria for example) a singer/guitarist combo might choose to interpret a Cante performance again with the loose binary compas used for BAILE, even though there is no dancer, for any of the cantes de La Mina. A similar thing happens when a cantaor chooses to open with a free Malagueñas and end with a rhythmical Verdiales or Rondeña."
From 2012 " they have, like most other palos, different meanings depending on context.
Cante-they both different cantes, meaning same form and family type but slightly different melodies and variations inside the general differences. A characteristic example of Taranto melody is that at the end of it, most singers sing an E# (half step below tonic) before the final note. Tarantas melodies don't have that, instead come down the scale to rest on tonic never below it. That is a generalization and small example. It takes lots of listening to begin to discern all the various details that distinguish all the cante de la mina family. Guitarist always play this for cante libre, or if there is compas a loose rhythm in 2/4 and only for Taranto, all the other cantes in the family are done free. Most of the time Taranto is interpreted free too.
Baile- at some point dancers started dancing "Taranto", it is similar feel to Tiento/tango rhythmically and the cante is forced to fit that slow 2/4 beat and structure. An essentially free cante ends up getting forced into that structure in numerous ways...I have yet to accompany two singers that do it EXACTLY the same rhythmically. Most oftent he melody of Taranto is done, but also I have heard taranta, minera, fandango minero, levantica, and cartageneras all forced into compas the same way or mixed in various ways to accomodate the choreography. As the dance builds, escobillas are accompanied same as tientos/tangos...typically tangos proper are sung later, even rumba to final, but it really depends on what the dancer wants. Despite all these variations the overall name used to describe the performance of the dance as a whole is simply "taranto".
Guitar- to keep it simple, the guitar plays in key of F# (unless some modern tuning is used to evoke the same "aire" this key has) and plays totally free or loose 3/4 type melodies for "Taranta" and if any compas of 2/4 or 4/4 is used, the moniker of "taranto" is used. Probably this started happening to solo guitar pieces AFTER the dancers starting dancing taranto.... the reason for the distinction to be used for a guitar solo should be obvious. Don't be surprised to find some totally free "taranto" guitar solos out there of course. It's not suposed to be THAT big of a deal.
Minera- this is a different cante melody in the family of cante de la mina, but when it comes to guitar solo, it refers again to free or loose melodies borrowing phrasing both in 3/4 or 2/4 at will, but in key of G# to differ from Taranta/taranto. To add confusion, ANY cante de la mina can be accompanied in G# OR F#...but when there is singing the cante melody is supposed to take over when naming it. In other words don't be surprised to find Taranto/taranta singing accompanied in key of G# as well...with or with out some rhythm need not make much difference.
To put it all into play in a single example.....Carmen Amaya's Queen of the gypsies recorded in the late 50s, she dances in 2/4, and sings a letra of Taranto, Sabicas plays in key of G# (por minera)....and the entire piece gets mislabled as "Rondeña".
Finally, they key of Granaina (B phrygian) can and has been used to accompany some cante de levante when the singer's range is very high pitched. I have heard taranto, taranta, cartegeneras all accompanied in those keys. Again, if it's a guitar solo it will simply be called "granaina". So for there has not been anything more then experiments that use granaina for baile...usually for only free interpretations or relating to Malagueñas. THe connective term for all these forms , malagueñas, granainas, cantes de la mina etc is "levante". "
Posts: 15854
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Article on origins of Rondeña t... (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
Is this the one you refer to, today called taranto, although named rondeña on video description? This is the one baile typically uses?
yes exactly. And the other of the same style was labelled "Tarantas". In that thread about Torre vs Chacon a few month back I posted also his Cartageneras that was labelled "Malagueñas". And as you quoted me back in 2012, Carmen's "mislabeled" Rondeña....I am no longer of the opinion that these things are "mislabeled"....I simply have upgraded to a belief that due to the old tradition of mixing cantes in a sequence thought of as: 1. Cante de inicio, 2. more ornate or tansitional cante or macho conclusion, etc., that the label of the form is more like a "working title" functioning as an umbrella term since it often the case a singer doesn't really know what they might sing until the moment of inspiration. Like falsetas we pull out of a grab bag, singers are free to pull from various styles of set and well reheared melodies.
Most surprising to me was not only that after learning "the hard way" over the years, ("on the job" and then recently reading the extensive Chavez/Kliman book) most of my ideas were STRONGLY confirmed by their organization methods (classification/labeling etc.), but also they helped focus and simplify my overall understanding of the mixing of styles. IN particular the old extinct habit to record (perform) Fandangos de Lucena, Rondeñas, Malagueñas, etc., as INITIATE cantes for Taranta, Cartagenera etc., explains A LOT about why the "mislabeling" occurred on record jackets.
Long story short, I feel Montoya using the title "Rondeña" for his solo is due to already having both Taranta (toque Levante) and Minera (G#) as working titles for his solos. So the "Rondeña" where he actually plays a Levantica, can be viewed, simply as the alternative title for "Taranto" which was a term he and colleagues did not use at that time. We need not do mental gymnastics about relating that thing to any abandolao compas or whatever happened in Catalan regions etc., it is just the arbitrary "cante minero toque" that he needed a title for. (if it had to do with Catalan cante it would not have been adapted RIGHT AWAY by Montoya for Taranta, Levantica, etc.). He could've used Levantica, Cartagenera, etc., but he chose the arbitrary alternative as it seems some singers are calling that Pedro del Morato melody "Rondeña". The 1867 zarzuela "Rondeña NUEVA" reinforces this idea of an alternative working title for the cante mineros mixing in with the folkloric Rondeñas (again we don't need a specific Catalan version to explain this connection). Today, thanks to the cante de la mina festival they DO NOT mix like that anymore, in an attempt to promote the cante mineros as a SEPARATE genre of its own, and hopefully preserve what is left of the old traditions of those melodies.
So people can hear an example of how the Rondeña of Montoya might function as a general accompaniment for cante mineros, listen to this example (Chavez/Kliman attribute the style to Minera de El Penene de Linares):
Posts: 15854
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Article on origins of Rondeña t... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
But how can someone claim to have invented something that ALREADY EXISTED IN SPAIN? The answer is only two ways: convergent evolution i.e. a rather bizarre coincidence....or....a long standing, almost "extinct" tradition that was rescued from oblivion by a select few in this mysterious "flamenco culture", (reminding flamenco means "flemish" literally), culminating in the early recordings of Montoya for posterity (which also becomes the "origin" point for subsequent generations of tocaores). Perhaps flamencos being visual learners, the unique tuning preservation was in part due to these blind maestros learning aurally and experimentally rather than the sighted that used por medio por arriba fingerings? Just a thought.
So, (talking to myself again perhaps), I have had this crazy conjecture for a while after noticing the overlap in the vihuela tabs….that this “coincidence” is maybe TOO much coincidence, that it makes sense for a fossilized tradition to adjust the third string down to F#, and perhaps the sixth down to D, to play FLAMENCO, with Montoya preserving the dying out tradition for posterity, leading to the false impression he INVENTED IT. So, intrigued by the new article I checked Castro Buendia’s facebook post about it (6 days ago, so June 20 or so) and Faustino Nuñez popped in and reminded him about his blog where in 2012 he noticed a curious public statement in 1800:
So THAT thing he found is EXACTLY what I am talking about…..back then, certain guitar players had a habit of retuning the 3rd string just like a vihuela. Now we don’t know exactly WHAT that music was, what key was being expressed (actually, F# minor "scale" is a clue), but considering I see MOST of the flamenco tonos expressed in the old vihuela, it really doesn’t matter to me. What matters is that it is a FACT that what I was saying (using the vihuela type tuning) was a “thing” in the 19th century, even if used sparingly and specifically. The term “POLO” carries too much baggage to assume what that music was, but the fact it ties in to flamenco AT ALL, is good enough for me that, based on the SPECIFIC music that overlaps with the Spanish song form genre in general, the possibility that this practice that montoya has recorded for posterity, might have been there all along for certain palos.
Now, at a some point, I am going to have to engage with these guys directly, perhaps privately, and I am still a bit nervous to do so as I have read these two guy’s papers (Faustino and Castro, both nice guys it seems), and have had major issues with certain things, so I KNOW they will push back very strongly. But at least some ideas of theirs and mine seem to be converging.
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