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Posts: 15792
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I really like this bulerias comp... (in reply to silddx)
Recently Mark Indigo brought up a point about flamencology or musicology in general that talks about the Spanish "Hemiola" or alternating pattern of 6/8-3/4 that is a superficial ingredient of flamenco Compás (we discuss in Grandaddy of Flamenco thread), and how it was present in Americas and Spain (ida y Vuelta). I basically point out how I roll my eyes every time they make a big deal about it as it is like a hyper focus regarding the history or origins of the flamenco rhythm, which is OVER emphasized as the important ingredient, as it really is a superficial element and as a teacher I often have to deal with getting students to understand the deeper nuance of the subdivisions of the compás (and later overall phrasing etc.), but this "hemiola" thing getting in the way.
So what he talks about (your video) at the start and demonstrates as a foreigner misinterpretation of bulería (he pounds out the accent pattern with Bb to A chord as a demo of a universal interpretation that is missing "something"), and then shows a simple pattern that has polyrhythm going on, as the "true base" of the rhythm. What happens with that basic poly rhythm pattern I describe in the earlier discussion I referenced, is actually something that manifests in renaissance vocal music (in particular with the composer C. Morales) that distinguished spain from other European composers, sort of like a 3:2 pattern of polyrhythm. This detail so often missed by guitar students, also seems to not be a focus of musicology (that I have read so far), and Spaniards are equally guilty of this as much as foreigner enthusiasts of flamenco.
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: I really like this bulerias comp... (in reply to Ricardo)
Perhaps related:
Years ago on the Foro I described the compás of siguiriyas as five beats:short, short, long, long, short; the duration ratio of long/short=3/2
Within a couple of days i received privately a half dozen polite corrections, teaching me how to count siguiriyas in twelve beats: ONE two, THREE four, FIVE six seven, EIGHT nine ten, ELEVEN twelve (or in a couple of attempts NINE ten, ELEVEN twelve, ONE two three, FOUR five six, SEVEN eight.)
None of my correspondents mentioned any of the many frequent and ingenious syncopations.
RE: I really like this bulerias comp... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Recently Mark Indigo brought up a point about flamencology or musicology in general that talks about the Spanish "Hemiola" or alternating pattern of 6/8-3/4 that is a superficial ingredient of flamenco Compás (we discuss in Grandaddy of Flamenco thread), and how it was present in Americas and Spain (ida y Vuelta). I basically point out how I roll my eyes every time they make a big deal about it as it is like a hyper focus regarding the history or origins of the flamenco rhythm, which is OVER emphasized as the important ingredient, as it really is a superficial element and as a teacher I often have to deal with getting students to understand the deeper nuance of the subdivisions of the compás (and later overall phrasing etc.), but this "hemiola" thing getting in the way.
So what he talks about (your video) at the start and demonstrates as a foreigner misinterpretation of bulería (he pounds out the accent pattern with Bb to A chord as a demo of a universal interpretation that is missing "something"), and then shows a simple pattern that has polyrhythm going on, as the "true base" of the rhythm. What happens with that basic poly rhythm pattern I describe in the earlier discussion I referenced, is actually something that manifests in renaissance vocal music (in particular with the composer C. Morales) that distinguished spain from other European composers, sort of like a 3:2 pattern of polyrhythm. This detail so often missed by guitar students, also seems to not be a focus of musicology (that I have read so far), and Spaniards are equally guilty of this as much as foreigner enthusiasts of flamenco.
What he does as the 'true base' just sounds better to me, much more groovy. I have been pounding out the hemiola pattern type bulerias from a tutorial and it's always sounded clunky, and that's probably just my clunky playing. But I learned some Diego del Gastor bulerias and it's much nicer, I want to move while I'm playing it.
RE: I really like this bulerias comp... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
Perhaps related:
Years ago on the Foro I described the compás of siguiriyas as five beats:short, short, long, long, short; the duration ratio of long/short=3/2
Within a couple of days i received privately a half dozen polite corrections, teaching me how to count siguiriyas in twelve beats: ONE two, THREE four, FIVE six seven, EIGHT nine ten, ELEVEN twelve (or in a couple of attempts NINE ten, ELEVEN twelve, ONE two three, FOUR five six, SEVEN eight.)
None of my correspondents mentioned any of the many frequent and ingenious syncopations.
RNJ
I was being taught to count from 8, but it felt a bit weird and over-complicated to me so I do 1 & 2 & 3 & a 4 & a 5 & which I find better for me.
RE: I really like this bulerias comp... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Recently Mark Indigo brought up a point about flamencology or musicology in general that talks about the Spanish "Hemiola" or alternating pattern of 6/8-3/4 that is a superficial ingredient of flamenco Compás (we discuss in Grandaddy of Flamenco thread), and how it was present in Americas and Spain (ida y Vuelta). I basically point out how I roll my eyes every time they make a big deal about it as it is like a hyper focus regarding the history or origins of the flamenco rhythm, which is OVER emphasized as the important ingredient, as it really is a superficial element and as a teacher I often have to deal with getting students to understand the deeper nuance of the subdivisions of the compás (and later overall phrasing etc.), but this "hemiola" thing getting in the way.
Wish I hadn't mentioned it now, never want to set eyes rolling...
I only mentioned it because: 1) Previously the earliest of that type of hemiola I was aware of was Canarios from the Renaissance era and there is a reference in the book I'm reading to it in a Cantiga from the Middle Ages; and 2) Having mentioned this earlier reference the book seems to repeat that it comes from Latin America post Columbus (i.e. Renaissance or Baroque era, and the implication that it came to Spain from the Americas, not the other way around).
But I totally get the eye rolling - for years I never understood why everyone seemed to teach 12,3,6,8,10 (or 12,3,7,8,10) por bulerias and I (almost) NEVER heard it on any recordings in the palmas... until I started connecting what I actually heard in the palmas with the guitarists foot tapping patterns and "odd sixes" or "medio compas" in dance (class) accompaniment with similar in cante and guitar...
RE: I really like this bulerias comp... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I often have to deal with getting students to understand the deeper nuance of the subdivisions of the compás (and later overall phrasing etc.),
I also think that it's important to see the subdivision of beats in the context of flamenco guitar technique.
For example in your masterclass youtube video, I think of the first 6 notes of 7 stroke rasgueado as two triplets in 16th notes. One can say it's a 16th note sextuplet. Underlying beat is a 8th note triplet. But then I wanted to feel that 16th note sextuplet in 2 beats in 8th notes (2/8 time) which go against 3 beats in 8th notes (3/8 time). So we have 2:3 polyrhythm here.
Am I overcomplicating it or do you think it's correct to see it as a polyrhythm?
RE: I really like this bulerias comp... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
Years ago on the Foro I described the compás of siguiriyas as five beats:short, short, long, long, short; the duration ratio of long/short=3/2
Within a couple of days i received privately a half dozen polite corrections, teaching me how to count siguiriyas in twelve beats: ONE two, THREE four, FIVE six seven, EIGHT nine ten, ELEVEN twelve (or in a couple of attempts NINE ten, ELEVEN twelve, ONE two three, FOUR five six, SEVEN eight.)
None of my correspondents mentioned any of the many frequent and ingenious syncopations.
As well as the usual 1&, 2&, 3&a, 4&a, 5&, I have played dance classes where the teacher counted Siguiriyas in 12 starting on 1 as in your example, but in another class the teacher counted in 12 starting on 12: TWELVE one, TWO three, FOUR five six, SEVEN eight nine, TEN eleven.
I think one of the books explains it in 12's starting on 8: EIGHT nine, TEN eleven, TWELVE one two, THREE four five, SIX seven (maybe the same book that insists that Fandango de Huelva is in 12, except before a falseta you play a 10 beat compas and at the end of the falseta you have to play a 14 beat compas!*).
I have in the past learnt and played PDL's "De Madruga" (admittedly not very well, at least not up to the speed of the recording!): it opens with arpegios in twos; he never plays the "normal" descending compas pattern, but there is a phrase that subs for it that crosses a 2 feel over the 3&a 4&a [Edit: over each/both of those]; and there is a falseta with a longer phrase that crosses that same 2 feel over 3 of the "in 12" beats continuously for a compas or a compas and a half...
*Yeah, I know, it sort of makes sense mathematically, but IMO it's conceptually really unwieldy and there are much simpler ways to understand it.
RE: I really like this bulerias comp... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
Years ago on the Foro I described the compás of siguiriyas as five beats:short, short, long, long, short; the duration ratio of long/short=3/2
I totally agree this is a natural way to do it. Also happens to be how Bulgarians would feel our uneven-rhythm folk music. It has the same two building blocks in the same ratio, just happens to make odd-number cycles with them. But just the same, in rachenica in 7/8, as an example, no one thinks of it or counts it as seven things; it is three 'beats' - short, short, long - that's it. You hear the long and are instantly oriented where you are in the 'compas'.
RE: I really like this bulerias comp... (in reply to kitarist)
In Greece we do the same too, for 7/8 , 9/8, 10/8 etc. The traditional musicians use two fruit names usually, one that has 3 syllables and one that has 2, to count these odd meters .
Posts: 15792
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I really like this bulerias comp... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
Perhaps related:
Years ago on the Foro I described the compás of siguiriyas as five beats:short, short, long, long, short; the duration ratio of long/short=3/2
Within a couple of days i received privately a half dozen polite corrections, teaching me how to count siguiriyas in twelve beats: ONE two, THREE four, FIVE six seven, EIGHT nine ten, ELEVEN twelve (or in a couple of attempts NINE ten, ELEVEN twelve, ONE two three, FOUR five six, SEVEN eight.)
None of my correspondents mentioned any of the many frequent and ingenious syncopations.
RNJ
Certainly related in general to the point I raised, however, the take away is the linked video is pointing out the internal polyrhythms are more important than the superficial math of the "accent patterns", or rather, I would say that if you just learn them bottom up, the "patterns" emerge naturally. (the "Copenhagen approach to compás LOL).
As for siguiriyas, I gave my thoughts here...it is the 7+5 poetic or syllabic structure that gives rise to the pattern (your observance of long, short etc.), the guitar is expressing this like it was a vocal Ostinato over and over as a back drop for the actual main melody and text, which is decoupled or floating on top of that (a relic of older vocal polyphony). Here you can hear the rhythm and imagine playing Bb-A exactly like Sevillanas to accompany the sung siguiriyas that floats on top (the video linked I mean):
Historical evidence for the ORIGIN of this (I am saying it is neither indigenous American, nor Arabic or Mozarabic or whatever but from a different specific source, lets say it is a subset of Flemish style motet) is here, Ocón transcription of Nana that shows the 7+5 metric coupled to the supposed "arabic Adan" type phrygian melody, and a correlation to what I believe is a "better fit" than any Adan, as the lyrics have the same mathematics (I am deliberately not showing the lyrics in public yet, dated 1613)...the correlation to focus on is the image labeled "3." as it is tied to lyrics and maps precisely to the first line in Ocón's "Nana, image 1."...and it was fun some of what I show correlated to Romeritos' transcription of cante as well:
Posts: 15792
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I really like this bulerias comp... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
For example in your masterclass youtube video, I think of the first 6 notes of 7 stroke rasgueado as two triplets in 16th notes. One can say it's a 16th note sextuplet. Underlying beat is a 8th note triplet. But then I wanted to feel that 16th note sextuplet in 2 beats in 8th notes (2/8 time) which go against 3 beats in 8th notes (3/8 time). So we have 2:3 polyrhythm here.
Am I overcomplicating it or do you think it's correct to see it as a polyrhythm?
In that video I point out the function of the technique (7 stroke) is conceptually different as 32nd notes in Soleá, vs as triplets in Bulerías, but more or less "feels" the same in your hand as a device to accent whatever beat you want. I would say a "polyrhythm" can manifest in context, however, an isolated rhythm is what it is ie, NOT poly anything, on its own. The way 2:3 or 3:2 can be viewed on its own is with this:
One quarter note, two 8th notes, one quarter note, repeat. Count 1, 2& 3, repeat. To realize this is a polyrhythm relation you need to execute that rhythm with two hands, let's say R/L together, then R-L-R, repeat. Assuming both hands remain steady, the Right hand is doing 3, and the Left is doing 2, and together they make a poly rhythm.
Historically this thing with your hands is clear enough, and in Spain they started doing this with two or more singers, singing text and melody in such a relation...by design vocal polyphony is "polyrhythmic" unavoidabley. When they started putting the vocal parts reduced to "chords" for a vihuela, a lot of that gets lost and it is like you are doing block chords on the fingerboard marching around. I FEEL, or conjecture, that when they realized that basic chords could replace the vocal stack of polyphony (Romerito points to Amat 1596 doing this), you realize that in order to replace the missing held vowel of the voice, or sustain of voices, you either have to re-sound certain notes, or do a rapid repeated strum to mimic that....Next this textual off set of the voices aka polyrhythm needs to be expressed inside the chord somehow, and you end up with this 3:2 bulerías pattern for example, that Pituquete shows in the OP video, expressing basically "different voices" on the different strings in the chord you are holding. Imagine your guitar chord patterns as expressing "lyrics".
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