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Posts: 1956
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: 2 finger arpegio I and M (in reply to devilhand)
You've got to be more specific, I've transcribed a lot of pieces but haven't encountered the concept of an i-m arpeggio. What Paco did in the intro of his fandangos or his taranta where he plays the descending arpeggio as an i-m picado is the only thing that comes close. Perhaps certain soleares where you have P-i-m-i patterns before resolving to the tonic.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: 2 finger arpegio I and M (in reply to devilhand)
Niño ricardo introduced "horquilla" triplets (p-am together-i). The idea of triplets can use both p-m-i or the above. Adding a bass note slur to make 4 notes become popular as well. Then you might find people doing the above 4 note phrase but splitting the a-m to make 5 tuplets out of it.
But a while back you posted some bizarre self taught guy dragging his damn finger. I hope you don't mean you are finding. more of that crap. Look, when ever we learn a new thing we notice it EVERYWHERE. That is fine, but in the big picture the three finger plus thumb arpeggios patterns are the most numerous, and what makes classical/flamenco guitar unique vs string instruments that use plectrum or bow.
Good one :) I'm not finding these common at all though. Way more common with (P) ami. How about Paco's descending picados he starts at the 7th fret and involves open strings. Would we consider those arpeggios?
RE: 2 finger arpegio I and M (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
But a while back you posted some bizarre self taught guy dragging his damn finger
You mean rest stroke upwards like arrastre on treble strings? I wanted to master it. But dropped the idea because my ami arpegio improved a lot. Now it sounds almost as powerful as fast arrastre.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: 2 finger arpegio I and M (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
But dropped the idea because my ami arpegio improved a lot.
Ok very good then. Yes the triplet is common...for TRIPLETS, with thumb. You started this post of with "used as much as" 3 fingers, which was an exaggeration, due to you simply noticing HOW OFTEN it actually is done. It is certainly part of the back of tricks, but not more important than developing the three finger coordination.
RE: 2 finger arpegio I and M (in reply to devilhand)
Like others here I found that your original question wasn't clear to me, but I can comment on this:
quote:
miP miP miP at 2:00
He's not playing triplets. They are groups of 4 (sixteenths) pmip, although often the first note of each four is not played by the thumb but by a left hand slur from the last note of the group before (pull-off or....¿cómo se dice? jamarón.) This gives it a nice flow.
(At 2:00 the first note is cut off; it's clearer at the beginning of the second compás, at 2:04, though it doesn't help that the sound and image are out of sync.)
Obviously there are variants in different phrases, but this is the framework.
RE: 2 finger arpegio I and M (in reply to Estevan)
quote:
He's not playing triplets. They are groups of 4 (sixteenths) pmip, although often the first note of each four is not played by the thumb but by a left hand slur from the last note of the group before (pull-off or....¿cómo se dice? jamarón.) This gives it a nice flow.
Thanks for chiming in. Your post made me want to learn R. Habichuela's trick. Have you studied with Habichuelas? That's exactly what you mentioned above. At 14:32 it's true when he does pull off. Is it Rafael's personalized technique? At 2:16 he's doing it again at a faster tempo in Alegrias. It sounds really cool.
You find this commonly elsewhere. I just recorded a few other PIM examples with various rhythmic/ligado mechanisms here:
I appreciate your examples. I'll definitely check out that Solea from Enrique de Melchor. As for Bulerias example, I would go for ami. At 4:10 you can hear it in Tangos.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: 2 finger arpegio I and M (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
As for Bulerias example, I would go for ami.
There is a variation on the idea of the horquilla remate 7-10 as 16th notes, where the bass line is pull offs with thumb on the beat (thumb right before and pull-off lands on beat), and the three notes fill in "e-&-ah", however, it is done only with a-m-i. You can hear Gerardo do it here at 1:18,1:54, and 3:11.
RE: 2 finger arpegio I and M (in reply to edguerin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: edguerin
@devilhand: something like this:
Is it meant to be played with pm together and i? I didnt know it had a name. It looks simple but I believe fingers must be ready for any combo with or without thumb. Do you have any example using tijeretas? I can imagine it can be tricky when played fast.
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RE: 2 finger arpegio I and M (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
however, it is done only with a-m-i. You can hear Gerardo do it here at 1:18,1:54, and 3:11.
Crazy fast I would say. It sounds like a short picado run on bass strings during Bulerias. Talking about G.Nunez, how about 2 finger arpegios from his encuentro dvd? If I can recall correctly he shows single and double arpegios pim pimi pmi pmim pam pama pma pmam or pai pia paia piai etc. Probably some of them have no practical application.
RE: 2 finger arpegio I and M (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Thanks for chiming in.
Thanks for (unknowingly) presenting the opportunity. I don't normally have anything to say about techniques etc. because I really don't play much and there are plenty of better qualified people here that regularly provide you with good information. It just happens that the soleá you asked about is one that Rafalín taught me, so it's one of those rare instances where I know what I'm talking about.
As for your other question, it's been my strange good fortune to connect at various times with some of the many Habichuelas, and learn a bit from a couple of them. And Juan Miguel (seen in the documentary) made me a very nice guitar. Rafalín's playing one of his in the second video you posted. Thanks for that, by the way - i didn't know about it, and it's nice to see.
Anyway, as Orson said, it's a common technique, and he's recorded some nice examples.
A couple of others that came to mind, and you may be interested/amused to note that Pepe plays this kind of thing with a m, rather than m i.
RE: 2 finger arpegio I and M (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
How about PPI? It's a thumb driven technique.
PPI is another essential technique. As you say it's more thumb driven so it has a different dynamic. Quite common in solea. Almost obligatory in seguiriyas escobilla. Also used in a particular way by Manuel Morao, and used by all the Jerezanos these days por seguiriyas, solea por buleria etc..
RE: 2 finger arpegio I and M (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Orson,
I was not able to access Ron’s video, perhaps, is there a problem that it was uploaded so long ago?
I just tried, it doesn't go straight to the foro player for me. But I can download the file and play it elsewhere. It's even better than I remembered, I really appreciate Ron's aire.
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