Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
RE: “Paco can’t play unless...” (in reply to Ricardo)
im the ignorant , but for you the sound of that Bandoneon is normal , ok...... for me sounds too digital even for "gotham project" standards by the way , i have cubase certification , and saw many times live Bandoneon , and listen to some cherry picked records of Tango etc. The tempo of the Bandoneon is also weird , but maybe a choice i dont know.
Only top notch will understand competition,.... thats so bias, but some dont give a **** , they re on their planet and no care about others Paco competition on players with other styles? didnt know.... thats strange, i have now learn a new thing , thanks. Admiration is normal.
Posts: 15722
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: “Paco can’t play unless...” (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
I would love to hear the amazing “Cubase certified natural acoustic live bandoneon” that demonstrates poor Dino Saluzzi is running through digital fake processing signal software, and out of compás. Can’t wait.
RE: “Paco can’t play unless...” (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
yes that AL track have a weird "bandoneon"
Oh, in that case, you have no clue. But we knew that already.
Funny how at precent day I tend to read AI rather then AL :-). Speaking about AI, as far as the bandoneon and maybe even parts of the guitar are concerned I actualy can't rule out a sampler is used rather then playing the instument for Real. I'm not so sure the bandoneon part is played for real.
Friends of mine who were excellent musicians touring the world made about 1 new show/studio album every 1,5-2 years. Touring/performing live was their core buisines. With the exception of 2 life albums there studioalbums were recorded the classic way but one. For their 4th record they joined hands with producer/composer Mike Batt who just scored a hit with that rabbit theme. The main reason was to expand their foreign activities using that big name to open doors. Mutch to my horror that complete record was computer generated using a professional sampler. I believe all they did was play/sample every single note of their instruments which became the samplers/computers sound pallet. I realy hated it. Why use a computer to generate the music rather then the genuine musicians who could play it even better. My friends didn't like it either but Mike Batt insisted on doing it that way. It couln'd have been the price tag since with 100.000 I think it was their most expensive record ever.
I must admit soundwise it sounded quite believable but what a waste of money and talent. Later they highly regretet they surrendered to those conditions.
I wouldn't be surprised if that bandoneon is computer generated as well. That an actual bandoneonist is named who can play it for real does not rule out he can't be bypassed using samplers. (my friends were named on that computer generated record as the instrumentalists as well).
A series of artists just protested to the use of their music by AI. If I'm not mistaken some AI generated material actualy use the voice/sound of a genuin artist. I've heard AI generated flamenco cante were you could hear which cantaor they sampled. Good part is AI can also be used to the good to upgrade historic records/films.
PS, our post crossed. I've heard the bandoneon on records and life many times. To me it sounds highly computer generated too.
I once nearly died during a concert of Astor Piazzola (I was seated right in front of him). The sound and composition was so overwhelming I experienced a shock and couldn't breath for various minutes. Dead due to an overdose of beauty. There are worse ways to die :-).
In the movie Tetro the sound of the bandoneon was combined with that of the 12 string guitar. It left me in tears. The songs/sound I heard so far from that AL record don't speak to me at all.
Both I and my father were more moved by the death of Piazzolla then that of Paco de Lucia. The reason was that in our view Paco had completed his musical journey while Astor still had promising carts to surpass himself in future. For years one of his last records (Zerro hour) was my personal record reference for this solar system. "When my children ask me what i've done with my life, this will be the record I'll play them, we put our souls in this record" Piazzolla himself once stated but I still had hope that was't a one time miracle. It took me a lot of effort to get hold of it back then but when I finally found myself a copy I played that record 3 times a day, for months. I played it to my musical friend when his father died stating "this is better then a bottle of whisky" (like me he was a huge fan of both Paco and Astor). He listened to it silently and like me concluded "he entered the next level". Paco Peña played it to my father once when they enjoyed a well deserved rest after a days hard work. It left my father in tears.
_____________________________
The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
RE: “Paco can’t play unless...” (in reply to Ricardo)
can be a matter of taste of artist and the producer , i dont like . So for me thats what it counts, and i know they dont give a **** for my opinion. And yes VST instruments by cubase were/are very good.... from first generation till now , FL was crap
RE: “Paco can’t play unless...” (in reply to Erik van Goch)
only they know the goal.. you can have real player real direct sound and do some efect when mix/master produce etc , maybe he didnt wanted a more traditional sound.
It has reverb , another one or two efects that i dont recall the name , and seems to have a lot of alterations on the notes (they made something with the real playing notes ) , and sometime they rush the tempo sometime they lag it , all made by software . i thinks its very visible , even an ignorant like i notice
RE: “Paco can’t play unless...” (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
the "bandoneón " sounds very anoying and weird , the sound its like artificial very digital (i dont know) and the tempo is very weird.
It doesn't sound like you know very much about either Piazzolla's music or the bandoneon sound. It is real, played by one of the contemporary lyrical-sound greats.
RE: “Paco can’t play unless...” (in reply to kitarist)
lol jesus it has some efects and you say its normal?
diferent time frames , one +- less the record period , the other is little older So if this is the same or similar of the Al record, even at live Al have effect on the guitar and Dino doesnt seem to have well , whatever
RE: “Paco can’t play unless...” (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
It doesn't sound like you know very much about either Piazzolla's music or the bandoneon sound.
So, do you know very much about either Piazzolla's music or the bandoneon sound? I am not entirely sure what you want to prove here (besides that you can never be wrong); it is fine if the bandoneon sound is not to your taste. But it's not artificial, this is what generally it sounds like, especially through amplification and compression to <160 kpbs for youtube.
Posts: 15722
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: “Paco can’t play unless...” (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
quote:
bandoneon
now in record... diferent artist , seems to have slight reverb or something, the diference... to AL lmfao
no need myself to post more.
This and the live material the mic is far away (preventing bleed from a quiet instrument). The closeness in the studio is catching even the clicking keys and a stereo picture, which you don’t get on any of the stuff you share. Perhaps you perceive this “unnatural closeness” to the instrument make it sound “processed”, but whatever. The issue of timing with this music which is essentially classical music, that they could even in theory fudge the tempo as you imply (with software) is ridiculous. These are “live in the studio” recordings.
Last thing is I will say Al’s arrangements and changes to the typical interpretations with this particular ensemble are superior. I remember getting Piazolla originals and feeling disappointed that they were only live recordings (you get the live vibe which is cool, but the fidelity is not as intimate), and no improvisation going on. But it is a unique genre and of course I respect the maestro.
Posts: 15722
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: “Paco can’t play unless...” (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
that one is nice , and very diferent and more "normal", few reverb (or whatever) , in opposite of the guitar .
Glad you liked it. Different piece, but it is from the same session, same mics, placement, instruments, stereo spectrum, reverb, compression, etc. etc. Well, this is dead horse. I was trying to point out the sound of the Conde with pick here is very nice compared to when he uses midi pick ups processed through an interface (Beato video) into a ****ty amp. This set up requires a good PA with very large horns. It is the same “quacking” issue every piezo scenario has.
RE: “Paco can’t play unless...” (in reply to Ricardo)
the reverb or whatever it is , its diferent , first seems to have somekind of efect on both instruments , last video just one (the guitar) , so theres a diference . Maybe a reverb and some delay sometimes , and as you know this can be done post playing in the mix/producing like in this track (and others in the record) theres modulation , or is just the mic position? lmfao By the way , Mike oldfield have exagerated in some records , and i liked..
Printable Version
They make no freaking sense in the context of the topic. That is called “trolling”. 
Well, this is dead horse. I was trying to point out the sound of the Conde with pick here is very nice compared to when he uses midi pick ups processed through an interface (Beato video) into a ****ty amp. This set up requires a good PA with very large horns. It is the same “quacking” issue every piezo scenario has. 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread