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Maybe that is why you came across it? If not, that is fine, there is another example from YouTube, notice the habibi Allah thing, which was NOT traditional at the time, rather a novel thing going on and here Beni seems to be making fun of the situation at 3:16 and the interviewer asks about it at 20:20:
He explains the influence of Arabic music on Andalucía due to the long occupation etc. Basically parroting what we all know, and admits it is a funny thing he likes to do as “temple” or to warm up the voice before the cante actually starts (ay ay ay, ole etc.). So this is the whole thing that we are told again and again, I have believed it myself for so long, and until I actually looked into the Makkam methods recently (right before the pandemic) I was ok with the “cante” being of Arabic nature origins or influence, and the guitar being the Western hybridization of the two, but no longer feel this way. I now feel that this thing about cante being SUPERFICIALLY influenced is a self-full filling prophecy due to the “Orientalism” perception of this music and others during the 1800’s. AS I say in linked thread, the 1838 accounts are in conflict (is the gitano Andaluz music and dance Indian or Arabic, or is this the “same” stereo type?) but it centers on the Phrygian palos (Romances and related) thought to be preserving ancient Arabic music practice. By now someone should have found something better than “Hijaz” which I have explained is too specific a thing that if that were the source of the cante etc., the microtonal quality would never have allowed the guitar chords to corrupt it. So if there was a hijaz music influence (there was a claim of the Zyrab thing to Morocco which is preserved but does not resemble the Phrygian thing musically). Even Castro Buendia addresses the issue in his Dissertation which is 3k pages of very deep investigation of the subject, that no surviving nor extinct Arabic music forms relate specifically to flamenco, and he argues it is superficial relationship (same with India and Pakistan music). Also we saw years ago the frustrating when the Qwwali project tried to force a fusion that made both sets of artists frustrated realizing the music is not related other than superficially.
So I feel the explanation for the above Arabic “cante” (it is not cante at all, but rather singing Arabic type stuff over the flamenco compas and chords) was a trendy novel thing for the day, based on the same uninformed cliche that had been going on to explain this mysterious music since the 1800s. This cliche continues to rear its head with long refuted “fela mengu” or now “menkub”, and other funny things that won’t go away, but despite my feelings on this, Romerito has made claims that he has found specific elements of Arabic music that can be concretely discussed, but has yet to reveal what these are so that we can discuss them and understand them deeper. Perhaps one of them is the Adhan that we discussed not long ago, but I don’t know:
The algorithms gave me the Montoya clip a week or two ago, and then it showed up again the other night; so, I was curious about it. (I hadn't yet seen the thread on ancient Greek music).
Thanks for the explanation of your current view on the matter.
Ricardo , you can even go to the names of some places that are arabic , but are the places arabic? or with arabs ? no , but they have some influence , mild one , the name of the places and some ruins or infrastruture. And Oranges... and almonds , tamaras from palm trees , olives .
like in your country a lot of the music had african and Celtic influence, but just the seeds, blues are completly diferent , jazz , bluegrass , country , and the more comtemp. thing like rock etc that cames from the oldies In DC theres straberry trees , and they are from here... med. south of european , we make "moonshine" with that fruit.
my first instrument was a cheap Kora
wiki says that was Developed 16th century, but theres some arabic record dated from 13 cent. that was found . and further from europeans.
The simple fact that one person or so , just saw/found something in X date it doesnt mean that it wasnt developed before , they just dont know.....and this misleads.. it like saying that some conquerors/sailors/geograficals found X place , yes it was found by them europeans (or just them) but the land was allready populated and discovered lol Like America with the Indians and Europeans, the Indians were allready there , the land wasnt discovered by europeans. Even the vikings were late on that... lol
but just the seeds, blues are completly diferent , jazz , bluegrass , country , and the more comtemp. thing like rock etc that cames from the oldies
Yes, a logical conclusion. But then we, or anyone, can ask “which ‘oldies’ are those exactly?”. So that is where we are at with a lot of music history. What I saw in some academia is that in order to claim a specific “oldie” has influence on something, what needs to be demonstrated is a “chain of replications”, such that you can trace the genetics of the “oldie” through time, and individuals involved with transporting the elements forward. Romerito made it clear that one cannot make a claim (in academia) without showing the steps going backwards in time with no gaps (unlike say paleontology where we make connections backward despite the gaps in the fossil record). I understand these constraints, yet find them problematic and limiting.
I used to not “believe” in the value of flamencology due to the limitation of the hard evidence (before 1890s, zero audio recordings, so impossible to know about anything before that time). I saw value in “classification” of cante, as we see on Norman’s website based on Solers/Mairena etc., and THAT is useful to a proffessional such as myself. What changed my thinking were certain surprising sources in score form that exist dating from long before audio recording. “Stepping stones” that, for ME at least, are filling in fossile record, and therefore admit I was very WRONG for my dubious attitude toward flamencology. For your “African” influence on modern music, most say “slaves” and just stop and accept this argument with no further investigation. Slaves MUST have brought their traditions to the table. So….what ARE those specifically?
This is the same thing with the Arabic and other influences on flamenco. What are they and are they valid? “Hijaz” is a HUGE one, and most people accept this at face value. I do not.
“Stepping stones” that, for ME at least, are filling in fossile record, and therefore admit I was very WRONG for my dubious attitude toward flamencology.
Wow! I am so glad. It is not perfect, and there is some gatekeeping in flamencology, especially the academic side of it. if Ratatouille taught us anything, it is that important insights can come from anywhere.
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Romerito has made claims that he has found specific elements of Arabic music that can be concretely discussed, but has yet to reveal what these are so that we can discuss them and understand them deeper. Perhaps one of them is the Adhan that we discussed not long ago, but I don’t know:
The adhan is one that Nunez found. I personally do not have specific elements of Arabic music, just some speculations and a hypothesis fleshed out in theory about some elements that are prevalent in flamenco. But I do not take a binary approach to any of it. There is no East/West, refined/courtly, modal/tonal, Gitano/Andaluz, for me. Those binaries are useful to think with but can also inhibit a more robust narrative about how and why flamenco is the way it is.
You'll notice there are no augmented seconds in the melodies of the Renaissance court musicians. They abound in Flamenco. Why is that?
As for going back to the Renaissance, unless you produce a smoking gun, all we have is speculation and if we're going that route, the Grandaddy of Flamenco thread gets much closer to flamenco. It was tongue in cheek but the point was that late Renaissance guitarists discovered chords and played only strummed music for awhile. It was such a novel idea. Imagine not having any money to go to school to study counterpoint and voila, someone teaches you major and minor chords in all keys. You'd be like a Rock god. Foscarini was the first (documented) musician to take the rasgueado style and reintroduce counterpoint such that a piece could juxtapose strummed (rasgueado) chord rows (chord progressions) with plucked (punteado) polyphonic passages. Listen to Fuenllana, Mudarra, Narvaez or Milan. Then listen to Foscarini, Sanz, De Murcia and Roncalli. Tell me which sounds more flamenco.
Also, you are missing an important key in your "Orientalization/fetishization" critique. That is that Spain, and to some extent Sicily, has always been considered not quite Western enough for the rest of Europe. Spain has constantly struggled with its hybrid identity, European and "Arab." And, as you pointed out, many flamenco artists allude to Spain's Arabic past or at least borrow from their neighbors to the south. Think of the sometimes quejio "mi yali." In Arabic suites the Ya Layali refrain "oh my night oh my eye" is a metaphor for ones beloved (one reading of it). Is "mi yali" just a vocable or is it rooted in the ya Layali? The possessive "mi" at the very least suggests a connection. Although a first expulsion of the Moors occurred in 1492, and another in the early seventeenth century, and the Spanish had already adopted multiple customs that became ingrained in the culture, even after expulsion culture contact continued through Moriscos who remained in Spain and other social contact such as trade, etc. The more important question would be, at what point does a specific musical element get introduced? Do some predate flamenco itself? Are some introduced while flamenco is being fleshed out? Are some introduced later as in your Qawali and Lole examples (doesn't Lole have some family/ancestry from the Maghreb/isn't Farruco's mom?)
Now ask similar questions of the Sephardic and Romani elements. It just is not as simple as "Guitar Western/Cante Western-Modal".
I personally do not have specific elements of Arabic music, just some speculations and a hypothesis fleshed out in theory about some elements that are prevalent in flamenco.
That is cool, would still enjoy going through those in the future.
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You'll notice there are no augmented seconds in the melodies of the Renaissance court musicians. They abound in Flamenco. Why is that?
Perhaps in other parts of Europe it is avoided, and in ecclesiastical singing, but honestly these vihuela dudes are showing it was going on, and unless someone wants to argue this tune is Arabic influenced (it’s P. Guerrero in Fuenllana), and explain again WHAT Arabic piece is the influence (rather than the stereo type again), and further explain why this ficta is interpreted as G natural in Medicineli source of the same tune (ficta is personal choice of performers, but tab gets at historical practices and I am implicating that the Vihuela guys possibly directly involved with flamenco repitoire sources, were not afraid of the sung aug 2nd as can be seen in the attached photo). Considering the “Arabic flavored” skip is NOT as prominent in cante as people assume (just look at some good transcriptions and notice how often G natural is softening that thing in general even over E major chords), seeing how both are allowed to function in context (unlike in Arabic Makkam where you stick to the one), is it not better to skip the middle man and simply accept Renaissance Spanish singers with their vihuelas in hand are already doing this expression? Even though the piece is in minor mode, the context is the same basic thing here.
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Perhaps in other parts of Europe it is avoided, and in ecclesiastical singing, but honestly these vihuela dudes are showing it was going on, and unless someone wants to argue this tune is Arabic influenced (it’s P. Guerrero in Fuenllana), and explain again WHAT Arabic piece is the influence (rather than the stereo type again), and further explain why this ficta is interpreted as G natural in Medicineli source of the same tune (ficta is personal choice of performers, but tab gets at historical practices and I am implicating that the Vihuela guys possibly directly involved with flamenco repitoire sources, were not afraid of the sung aug 2nd as can be seen in the attached photo).
Yes, if you have direct evidence and can't share it because you are awaiting to publish, I get that. But, you have the same problem that Arabists or people arguing for Arab/Moorish influence have, which is, to demonstrate direct influence. Divergence suggests common ancestry while convergence suggests arriving at similar practices independently. Is the augmented second of flamenco homologous (divergent: from some other common ancestor) or analogous (deriving from similar environmental pressures (evolutionarily biological/cultural)?
Not enough info. Where is the melody notated in the Fuenllana? Just reading the cifra that "c" looks like it could be interpreted as an independent voice. When played, that e rings out until that d#. Unless that c is specifically notated in the voice, that is a problem. What is the name of that?
Music is not like a human being. A human being only has two parents and inherits genetic material from each. Additionally, some human DNA may come from viruses and some bacteria may affect human biology, including cognition.
Music is not so easily categorized (boxed in). It is not like a biological individual. There does not have to be one piece, one genre, one instrument, one vocal inflection, and in fact, that is what has made historical investigation so difficult. Flamenco emerged in the 19th century so the question is what music is more likely to have left the mark of an augmented second. Did it exist in Renaissance song? If so, are you a gitanoist? If so, how do you demonstrate a direct connection of the augmented 2nd from Renaissance music to gitano practices in the 19th? It is as difficult to prove as any arabic hypothesis. The problem for claiming a Renaissance influence is that there are multiple musical phenomena that are similar to Andalusi/Arabic/Moorish music and even some that are similar to Indo-Pakistani music.
None of this is to deny gitano creativity in flamenco. Mairena said that flamencos "forged" certain palos from "Andalusian metals." I take Mairena and try to understand how those processes might have occurred. For me, the Renaissance is too distant, while the "long Baroque" overlaps with pre and proto-flamenco" and some forms even evolve and overlap with flamenco.
At any rate, one reason I don't get on here too much any more is because it does get too cerebral sometimes. I think some people just want to learn some falsetas, be pointed in the direction of some good cante, or even troll. I am staying out of the political conversations and do my best to avoid tho or three people on here. Let me know which piece that is if you can. The TOCs in facsimiles are a pain in the ass.
The adhan that you mentions is in maqam hijaz and Nunez deserves the credit for discovering that the melody can be found in some solea and seguiriya lines, notably Joaquin de la Paula 1. This transcription shows it in both ascending and descending form. I would say that it seems to be more common ascending but my data set is not that big.
I cannot hear that augmented second in the original. So, now, the question is, does Fuenllana's version introduce the possibility of that augmented second and influence later practice. If so, is there a direct line from Fuenllana to the aug 2nd in the solea and seguiriya. I think it is a stretch. You can download a facsimile of Fuenllana with the melodies in red.
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Lots to unpack so let me try to catch up with you.
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As for going back to the Renaissance, unless you produce a smoking gun, all we have is speculation and if we're going that route, the Grandaddy of Flamenco thread gets much closer to flamenco.
Just a reminder that in court case the direct evidence is not always as good as building circumstantial evidence. Smoking gun is circumstantial, and a forced confession or video grab are direct evidence and can be problematic. In this regard I am looking for direct evidence, but meanwhile have heaping tons of good solid circumstantial evidence that serves to explain the bottom line which is my subjective interpretation of musical evidence (correlation to cante melody and formal structure of the palos). Sorry not wanting to reveal it yet, but would rather not have to rely on my interpretation at all to make my case, and just be able to drop facts. A “signed confession” would be great. But, for example, Ocon is direct evidence of something and the interpretation of whatever it was is problematic. So the building up a case thing, like to prove reason and knowledge about, connections between people etc., is how in court they do the infringement thing. In the end a jury must be convinced of something and make a decision. So it is looking like I need to build my circumstantial case study rather than train people in cante recognition (takes 20+ years etc.) in order to convince them melody X IS the Soleá or whatever. If I am lucky, some people that have that background will see exactly what I am seeing and agree and be happy with the evidence in support of a narrative or theory I develop. Others have to take my word for it, or simply admit the correlations are all a huge coincidence, as a result of my confirmation bias due to hyperfocused cante training.
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Listen to Fuenllana, Mudarra, Narvaez or Milan. Then listen to Foscarini, Sanz, De Murcia and Roncalli. Tell me which sounds more flamenco.
We can’t. At best we get a filter of supposedly “historically informed” performances aka interpretations. Like the Castro Buendia re-writing of Ocon, I take issue with these and go to the source and just look at it for what it is. In this regard, you in fact pointed me to some Sanz that I found relevant and possibly important, however, in general, the vihuela via a lens of Rondeña slays the baroque stuff for me. Orders of magnitude more relatable to me, not just cuz of 6 strings and phrygian cadences. I get that I must pass through this Baroque/classical membrane to make a claim like Renaissance stuff is preserved, but I do have circumstantial evidence in my favor. I just need more since it is a LOOONG time frame. That Caracol-Planeta was established concretely via baptism records doesn’t prove they both had the same cantes, but it helps to close gaps and set up causality. I have to go back a little longer (they went 6 generations, I need like 9) from that time, but again this could be done in theory with my project. It could also rule out involvement and be used to prove me wrong, or “falsify my model”. I know this is really soft science, but still I am open to being wrong, as I explained above.
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Also, you are missing an important key in your "Orientalization/fetishization" critique. That is that Spain, and to some extent Sicily, has always been considered not quite Western enough for the rest of Europe. Spain has constantly struggled with its hybrid identity, European and "Arab." And, as you pointed out, many flamenco artists allude to Spain's Arabic past or at least borrow from their neighbors to the south. Think of the sometimes quejio "mi yali." In Arabic suites the Ya Layali refrain "oh my night oh my eye" is a metaphor for ones beloved (one reading of it). Is "mi yali" just a vocable or is it rooted in the ya Layali? The possessive "mi" at the very least suggests a connection. Although a first expulsion of the Moors occurred in 1492, and another in the early seventeenth century, and the Spanish had already adopted multiple customs that became ingrained in the culture, even after expulsion culture contact continued through Moriscos who remained in Spain and other social contact such as trade, etc. The more important question would be, at what point does a specific musical element get introduced? Do some predate flamenco itself? Are some introduced while flamenco is being fleshed out? Are some introduced later as in your Qawali and Lole examples (doesn't Lole have some family/ancestry from the Maghreb/isn't Farruco's mom?)
In the other topic I posted the same Phrygian fetish guy who explained the issue with Greeks and Europeans in general, that the Ottoman occupation caused this issue. Simply, the Greek euro thing is putting the music thing on the Turks, despite it having already been European and older rooted. Similar to the Sephardic song of Turkish guy sounding like Petenera…it turns out it post dates Spanish versions and was likely influenced BY flamenco not demonstrating a vice versa influence. That is also confirmation bias, because of this Orientism thing in general. Everyone wants it to be the older more fundamental source, when, it might not be. Timeline is very important to clear up connections and influences. If Montoya family is Arabic, are they preserving traditional songs corroborated by Arab musicians/scholars, or did they learning them due deliberately to explore the possible connection that was “lost” so they think? I mean, an Arabic musican would know, and so far I have not heard about it, and research done I am aware of has not found a specific connections like that. Even it is true, Lole family preserves old Arabic music of zyrayb or whatever, rather than just the cliche, what is the form and how does it relate to the incredibly complex and established flamenco repertoire?
Yes, if you have direct evidence and can't share it because you are awaiting to publish, I get that. But, you have the same problem that Arabists or people arguing for Arab/Moorish influence have, which is, to demonstrate direct influence.
Exactly why I am making it a big issue. It is because I have collected a lot of the necessary circumstantial facts that connect the people and places involved. It is a big can of worms. The problem is many historical facts are not hyper music detail centric, which I need to correlate anything to cante and palos that are only connected by the word “Flemish” and Spaniards with guitars/vihuelas in Andalucia. Like yes I have gypsies and vihuela players, causal connections, etc. I can cite Castro Buendia because he correlated ONE LINE OF VERSE of the polo to a song in the vihuela rep. He was on the right track but just scraping the surface there. Like, I see he did good work there but fails to point out two different vihuelistas are claiming “composer credit” for the same thing, and they are not exactly the same either, nor are they the correct structure for the polo as a whole song form. But ANY darn correlation is good for me. My findings explain what he is seeing much more clearly (both guys are plagiarizing the same source which is closer to the proper full palo, in this one case. I have lots of other examples like this one though). So yes, I recognize the problem.
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There does not have to be one piece, one genre, one instrument, one vocal inflection, and in fact, that is what has made historical investigation so difficult. Flamenco emerged in the 19th century so the question is what music is more likely to have left the mark of an augmented second. Did it exist in Renaissance song? If so, are you a gitanoist? If so, how do you demonstrate a direct connection of the augmented 2nd from Renaissance music to gitano practices in the 19th?
It did not have to be, and we are told of this mixing bowl of culture. But one thing is spices, salt, and pepper, and the other is a huge chunk of meat. I am more concerned with the big picture, the formalized structures that give rise to these rules, complexity, and difficulty in learning the thing with a very closed society protecting the whole thing. From what I am seeing, it looks like a singular repertoire is the bulk. Augmented 2 is a small detail that accounts for the “hijaz” correlation, nothing more, and I am saying it is there, in small enough quantity to map to what cantaores are still doing (it is used or not in a personal way without harming or changing the structure), even if influenced by orientalism more recently. Honestly I am now seeing this Orientalism as a miss characterization that, just like “Flemish” is confusing, is keeping the repertoire safely hidden. I am a “gitanoist” in the sense, I see historical connections and reasons for them carrying the repertoire as per Mairena’s implied “hermetic” or secretive cultural nurturing of the forms and their original melodies. More than just expert interpreters and creators within this small genre, they are stewards of an important historical thing relevant to Spain/European history in general. It appears publicly at a very precise moment in history as well. The date and entire timeline is important and all makes sense. The gitanos personally connect to the musicians/poets with the repertoire, so it is looking like. Bullfight thing also connecting. Semana Santa, cantes mineros, weird anecdotes now make sense…it is all connected logically. As I said, baptism records could reinforce these connection via specific family lineages.
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The problem for claiming a Renaissance influence is that there are multiple musical phenomena that are similar to Andalusi/Arabic/Moorish music and even some that are similar to Indo-Pakistani music.
Right. You need formal structure and the specific melodies that drive these. As I said, proving a correlation is not easy (though I see it clearly and have demonstrated it to others as a proof of concept at least), so I am building a case around that, hoping I get enough that teaching people how to sing the solea macho is a last resort. Even if the correlation is deemed coincidental and the amazing historical stuff I have compiled is nothing but interesting curious info, the source repertoire is good enough to AT LEAST function as analogous to explain musical function of the song forms…since it too has classification and whatnot that has been done as per Renaissance music study. Like I have been saying, academic bubbles remain closed it seems. But I can point to the methods etc., and say “well, if you don’t accept a direct relation fine, but our flamenco is doing the same damn thing”. And folks can keep doing their hijazzkar flamenco scales with no worry.
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Let me know which piece that is if you can. The TOCs in facsimiles are a pain in the ass.
Looks like you found the mediceneli version that is choral, and people don’t do the ficta because they are not written in. Remember it is rare to see in mensural notation, but tablature reveals trends and performance versions since it is stamped in. So they sing G natural there. Here at 1 minute you hear Fuenllana’s version. It does not matter what version is older etc., all I am showing is it exists in the minds/ears of the people at this time who are not Arabs. And these books are like methods into how music could be done, cherry picking from the Catholic mass, random magnificats, madrigal endings, etc., ie, extractions to show musical techniques. Consensus is that Fuenllana is the more advanced. I relate more to his work than most of the others but damn there is a lot I have not gone through yet. Mudarra, Narvaez, etc., very beautiful and relevant, again even if only as analogous to flamenco system of phrygian.
The adhan that you mentions is in maqam hijaz and Nunez deserves the credit for discovering that the melody can be found in some solea and seguiriya lines, notably Joaquin de la Paula 1. This transcription shows it in both ascending and descending form. I would say that it seems to be more common ascending but my data set is not that big.
I am glad you show this transcription, is it your own? Joaquin 1 is often done with F# to G# as well, that is how Carol Whitney interpreted Talega’s version. Also G natural might work its way up to A from F, but revert to G# after. Some people can’t hear this distinction as Talega and others run the scale quick enough, and often intonation not super perfect. In my own transcriptions I specifically chose a pastora version of another cante because she sang G natural and Camaron a G# for the same style, and it all basically is lining up with musica ficta…as in one performer is free to use ficta or not yet the original melody is thought as “the same thing” regardless. And apply that to the classification system of cante and all its variants which are parsing out what the heck is the “thing” being expressed, and they come to things like “so and so reaches the 7th degree as seen in this other cante”. Well all that falls within the scope of the Renaissance interpretation of Phrygian melodies too. There are rules, but we get such a deep view into how strict these are via the tablature of vocal music set on vihuela. It is a huge insight for the practices of the time.
Now your Adhan I have not seen a source other than the modern YouTube video done by some dj or whoever made it sound “cool”. Nunez picked it out of tons of other examples that don’t correlate, and adjusted its speed and pitch to fit in the same key. I call that “cherry picking” and confirmation bias. However, let us pretend this is a legit ancient source that predates the birth of Joaquin and this can be proven etc. The first line of verse of the examples all seem to share this exact same melody (again allowing for the variations). I agree, they are all the same as a singular extracted line of octasyllabic verse. (Siguiriyas has different poetry but let’s say it can work too with slight fudging.). Although this is different, it is akin to also the single first line of verse Castro Buendia correlated to polo. Keep that on the back burner for now. So let’s talk about this melody.
5 syllables are strongly expressed on the tonic note. I often hear this melody approach the E from a lower note, often not specific pitch wise. The second compas or line descends from A back down to tonic E. Pretty standard, and as pointed out by Nunez we hear it in martinete (with the F# G# most often) and siguiriyas (with Bb up to held D resolve to C#). Ocon captures a version these guys missed that is still being done today, as “Nana” (first image below). I pointed this out in your siguiriyas thread meter thread, he also has Saeta that is like Octasyllabic por medio version of the same type of melody. To me, if these are all the same as Nunez suggests (I agree with him for the first line of these), then this nana goes with them as the same general expression, with only lyric delivery slightly changing things, but is demonstrable as older than Joaquin (1860s at least and Ocon claims much older). Let us say the Adhan is older still (it is probably not, but let’s pretend). We can say joaquin is using this known older “Arabic” melody to make his own solea cante, and it is also used in siguiriyas. While nana and martinete are not harmonized, we can consider them “melodic minor” and Phrygian mixed, at least on the first line of verse (since we accept tonic E or A por medio for these melodies generally). Perhaps one can argue hijaz is being corrupted here? Well, I want you to consider the form of the following melodies that relate to my research. All are first lines of verse as well, poetry is again 8 syllables for second image example. Third example is 6+7 similar to seguidilla poetry, both of these I include first and second sung lines (I omit the lyrics so folks don’t yet figure out the source ). These are distinct themes, but the 4th and 5th images are considered the same song (por medio), but were published with different meters and implied ficta hence one has Bb the other B natural on the way up. All 4 are part of the non-Arabic “source repertoire” I feel strongly accounts for the bulk of cante, and were extracted from sources dating to the Baroque. However, just like it seems Nunez and flamencologists want us to accept these as the same expressions for a first line of verse, these Baroque melodies can all be traced back to a more primary source in the Renaissance.
Now the last thing is this. The Castro buendia polo melody in the vihuela? Take that as a soprano voice (or even your own transcription of the first sung lines of any polo or Caña), and place it above ANY ONE of these 4 melodies below to create organum (canto de organo or two voice polyphony, in same key obviously), and what you have just created is the first two sung lines of THE SOURCE as it would appear as a Flemish type motet (the lower voices could be your guitar or vihuela “vertical sonorities” if you want) 500 years ago. The rest of the setting would include the cambio and conclusion and use repeats as per 4-line verse that repeats making 8 compases, and THIS is in fact what I have found. That is one piece and there are a whole bunch of others that I correlate to stronger or weaker degrees based on what I personally understand, in the repertoire. I am saying the separate cantes are like extracted polyphony and the guitar fills in the blanks, and mix match is done as per Flemish style cantus techniques. Nobody recently has thought to sing two different cantes at the same time and that they would produce a harmony (like Joaquin plus Andonda, etc.). This explains why they all follow a formal harmonic structure, driven by the text.
1. 2. 3. 4.
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And if wondering, like the nana that shows plain notes, vibrato and melisma were permitted with these melodies like the Joaquin. What was that like? Well there are some scores that show melisma and vibrato examples. But since were are talking about gitanos interpreting these melodies, the treatises are probably not important. What is important is that we can see and trace melodic genetics if has been published or written in manuscripts.
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but our flamenco is doing the same damn thing”. And folks can keep doing their hijazzkar flamenco scales with no worry.
If there is no direct relation, then it does not really matter what system one uses. Direct relation only matters if you have a serious and rigorous methodology that can actually demonstrate it. Otherwise, it is speculative history, which also has its value.
I have no problem with someone using Double Harmonic Major, Hijaz Kar, or Bhairav to explain something. Situating them in a cross-cultural perspective with historiographical purposes in mind is another matter, or calling something an aug6th chord before 1650 or so.
Up to now I have also viewed flamenco as tonal but now I see it as having modal qualities which fit within a tonal context. Harold Powers suggested that tonality and modality exist on two different planes. I think there is a lot that is modal that can fit within tonality but we did not have the courage or support before (because of academia's gatekeeping) but things are slowly changing. Hynes Tawa points out that tonality really focuses on diatonic pitch space and that when chromaticism occurs it is usually in service of creating a new, temporary diatonic pitch space. In tonality verticality determines much of the palette. In modality, however, voice-leading does. So there is much more room for "weird," unexpected harmonies
And if wondering, like the nana that shows plain notes, vibrato and melisma were permitted with these melodies like the Joaquin. What was that like? Well there are some scores that show melisma and vibrato examples. But since were are talking about gitanos interpreting these melodies, the treatises are probably not important. What is important is that we can see and trace melodic genetics if has been published or written in manuscripts.
I was dubious, but that looks extremely interesting.
I am glad you show this transcription, is it your own? Joaquin 1 is often done with F# to G# as well, that is how Carol Whitney interpreted Talega’s version. Also G natural might work its way up to A from F, but revert to G# after. Some people can’t hear this distinction as Talega and others run the scale quick enough, and often intonation not super perfect. In my own transcriptions I specifically chose a pastora version of another cante because she sang G natural and Camaron a G# for the same style, and it all basically is lining up with musica ficta…as in one performer is free to use ficta or not yet the original melody is thought as “the same thing” regardless.
Yes. I have multiple versions of Joaquin de la Paula 1 transcribed with A as target note, Gnat and G# and everything between. And I have multiple examples of "not box playing" lol. In other words, when the singer sings g#, the guitarist plays E, even though the g# is an embellishing afterthought. There is a video on Youtube by a guitarist who talks about how that became a norm, I think in the seventies. I don't remember if he gave an exact decade. Also a version in which the singer sings Gnat and the guitarist responds with a quick G chord. I've even found a version that descends all the way back down to F.
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Now your Adhan I have not seen a source other than the modern YouTube video done by some dj or whoever made it sound “cool”. Nunez picked it out of tons of other examples that don’t correlate, and adjusted its speed and pitch to fit in the same key. I call that “cherry picking” and confirmation bias. However, let us pretend this is a legit ancient source that predates the birth of Joaquin and this can be proven etc.
There is another problem with Nunez. His basic premise is sound. I checked multiple version of Adhan in Hijaz and they correlate well enough with JdlP 1. What he gets wrong in my opinion is mixing the f# versions in. That would be a different jins and the question then becomes, is the mixing of f with f# a deliberate use of a different mode, or a problem with singing the augmented second.
Is this the version you were talking about? Some of these are, as you note "melodic minor, while some are phrygian dominant. He should have commented on that.
I was dubious, but that looks extremely interesting.
Dang! Let’s call it a good day then!
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Is this the version you were talking about? Some of these are, as you note "melodic minor, while some are phrygian dominant. He should have commented on that.
Yes of course. I like that he correlates the cantes, because it corroborates my own finding that this is also the allowed variation in this other source phrygian based melodies (just so happen to have same syllables and ultimately formal structure based on these specific melodies). I don’t know enough about the Arabic thing to say whether they would not cut your head off for singing accidentals. You say there is other Adhan that is the same as the one he is using? All call to prayer examples I found on line were different. I will look again.
At any rate, one reason I don't get on here too much any more is because it does get too cerebral sometimes. I think some people just want to learn some falsetas, be pointed in the direction of some good cante, or even troll
Maybe some aspects of these discussions are cerebral but much is directly relevant to both listening to/appreciating cante and accompanying cante. I am grateful because it informs and enriches my ear, and hence deepens my ability to participate and enact. Over the years these discussions have helped direct and inspire me to do my own cante 'transcriptions' and better enabled me to hear and recognise cante melody/styles.
Though I cannot add anything to these discussions at the level they deserve, wanted to let you know these discussions are valuable beyond any 'ivory tower'.
Though I cannot add anything to these discussions at the level they deserve, wanted to let you know these discussions are valuable beyond any 'ivory tower'.
Thanks to you and anybody else tuning in. I learn a lot myself blabbing away and looking stuff up, it is not about “who is correct?” Like the old flame wars about modern vs traditional flamenco etc. If Romerito and others hadn’t pushed back over the years at some of my wacky ideas, I guess I would never had noticed this historical stuff. Romerito had me looking up tons of Adhan the other day and my kids now think I am converting Muslim.
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). These are distinct themes, but the 4th and 5th images are considered the same song (por medio), but were published with different meters and implied ficta hence one has Bb the other B natural on the way up. All 4 are part of the non-Arabic “source repertoire” I feel strongly accounts for the bulk of cante, and were extracted from sources dating to the Baroque. However, just like it seems Nunez and flamencologists want us to accept these as the same expressions for a first line of verse, these Baroque melodies can all be traced back to a more primary source in the Renaissance. 
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