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Posts: 15722
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Mark2)
.
quote:
Their singer had a surgeon's outfit and a fake dead dog. He threw the "dog" around on an operating table of sorts, flinging all kinds of fake blood, while they pounded out a beat that was so loud and extruciating it drove me from the hall.
What kind of flamenco where you doing? I use fake blood (and sometimes real LOL) and dead cats of course, it gets messy, and VERY loud. I would have to turn it down as to not take away from the main act. You should have come out with the capirote and scared the sh1t out of those kids!
Posts: 1956
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Mark2)
What a story :D Some of my least favourite performances were when we had a contract for a few shows opening for a Hungarian "patriotic rock" band. It was surreal, all those old guys in black leather jackets with nails and a lot of national colours and their equally lovely ladies, and there we are playing alegrías! I still enjoyed performing as we had a really good Australian dancer lady with us so that helped me through these gigs. The money received was most welcome :D
Posts: 2006
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Ricardo)
Obviously not puro! I didn't have any blood, fake or otherwise! Just my Ramirez. No wonder they didn't dig it! Boring as hell!!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
.
quote:
Their singer had a surgeon's outfit and a fake dead dog. He threw the "dog" around on an operating table of sorts, flinging all kinds of fake blood, while they pounded out a beat that was so loud and extruciating it drove me from the hall.
What kind of flamenco where you doing? I use fake blood (and sometimes real LOL) and dead cats of course, it gets messy, and VERY loud. I would have to turn it down as to not take away from the main act. You should have come out with the capirote and scared the sh1t out of those kids!
Posts: 2006
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
You needed a leather jacket!! Or maybe one with motor cycle gang colors !!
I did another strange gig opening for Tim Finn. He had Tony Levin on bass so I was pretty stoked. I found out they wanted an unusal opener, hence I got the call.
I got to the club in the afternoon to do a sound check and no one was there except the bartender. The entire club was painted black. I mean everything-walls, celing, everything. I'm sitting at the bar and I ask for a beer. He completely ignores me. After a minute I just go behind the bar and grab one. He says nothing.
Two tourists enter the club and look around, baffled. They ask the bartender "What is this place?" He says "I don't know"
I go to my dressing room and it is of course all painted black. Nothing in it except a bench. After a while Tim Finn asks to meet me and I go and meet him and his band. He thanks me for agreeing to the gig. Their dressing room is full of food and drinks.....
My solo act didn't go over that well. Not my best gig.
It took a month for me to get the 100.00
quote:
ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ
What a story :D Some of my least favourite performances were when we had a contract for a few shows opening for a Hungarian "patriotic rock" band. It was surreal, all those old guys in black leather jackets with nails and a lot of national colours and their equally lovely ladies, and there we are playing alegrías! I still enjoyed performing as we had a really good Australian dancer lady with us so that helped me through these gigs. The money received was most welcome :D
Posts: 2006
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to paleto3)
Great post, and I relate to a lot of it. I spent several years doing corporates and weddings. I grew to hate it. At first I was thrilled to get paid that much. But headset wearing blond haired wedding planners, bridezillas, drunks, etc made me not want to even go to another wedding ever, and I haven't, except of course those of my two daughters.
One notable wedding-I thought my four piece was getting well paid-about 2,500.00 for two hours but then I overheard one of the groomsmen mention the bachelor party was in Cuba. Damn I thought, should have charged more.
The bride requested Ottmar Leibert's first hit, barcelona nights I think it's called. At first I was not willing to do it, but then I thought it's not about me, it's about her. Why not? So we arrived early enough for me to show the three chords to the other guitarist.
The room was beautiful, with a few couches near the stage for guests to really relax. The plan was for the doors to open while we played the Ottmar tune as the guests entered. The conga player was a funny guy, may he RIP. He said it would be great if when they entered we were all asleep on the couches, snoring ala the three stooges. I couldn't get the image out of my mind.
I resisted his suggestion and I did play that Ottmar tune as they entered. And I played that damn thing for almost 20 minutes. I was tempted to play it for an hour. HAHA.
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Mark2)
I used to play fiddle in a busking band. We did a mix of Celtic music, punk, pop, whatever we fancied, which included a couple of disco song intros as a joke. We'd play at the local downtown market and could draw pretty big crowds. One day we were invited to play for one of Canada's political parties, who were having a BBQ in a courtyard of one of the Parliament buildings. We negotiated the price, which wasn't much, but included free beer. It was the free beer that hooked us in and off we went to Parliament Hill to play.
Turns out the only song they liked was the intro to a disco song named "Push It!". We only knew the intro up to somebody yelling Push It! and that was about it. Well, that's all they wanted to hear so we played that intro over and over in a loop for about an hour while they flailed away disco dancing to their heart's content.
When we were done we asked about our free beer and they said "Help yourselves". So we each shouldered a case, grabbed our instruments and left. Not sure that's what they intended. Our haul was about $40 and 120 beers. Our tax dollar at work...
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Mark2)
Great story. I remember having to play Moon River on the bride's entrance once. She loved it, and us which sort of made it worthwhile (so yes, worth it to become a guitarist .)
In the UK, maybe the world over, for insurance purposes we have to test all electrical gear (Portable Appliance Test) so we don't a) kill others, b) kill ourselves.
I got the test done on my guitar amp for a wedding. Set up on the day, did the sound check and immediately received a shock from the mic I sang through. Not the full whack, but a shaker. Bloody PA! I thought. The sound guy couldn't find anything wrong either. Bloody sound guy!
The bride and groom asked to borrow my guitar during the break for a short set of their stuff. I reluctantly agreed thinking on balance it would be unfriendly to refuse.
Nothing happened to them but on return to the techie who'd done the test it emerged that I hadn't actually supplied the kettle lead that I'd used for him to test when he did the amp. It failed immediately.
I often wonder whether the MU public liability insurance would have covered the duel death of the erstwhile happy couple and how my defence that I had at least partially tested my equipment would have gone down with the grieving relatives.
Posts: 2006
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to El Burdo)
So interesting. Several years ago my agent told me that I needed to provide liability insurance for my band for a corporate gig. I said he should have told me before he quoted the job, and he said that I needed to accept it because it was only going to happen more and more. And I thought about it and realized that as the leader if some drunk guest tripped over a cord, or a bandmember did something stupid, I could get sued. I found a company that sold insurance by the gig for about 100.00 or you could get it for a year for 4-500.00 That helped me decide the party was over for me in terms of corporate gigs.
But if nothing else, I think this thread has shown that it is certainly worth it to become a musician, as the experiences we have, the people we meet, and the places we go are unique to being a musician. And that in itself makes the journey well worth it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: El Burdo
Great story. I remember having to play Moon River on the bride's entrance once. She loved it, and us which sort of made it worthwhile (so yes, worth it to become a guitarist .)
In the UK, maybe the world over, for insurance purposes we have to test all electrical gear (Portable Appliance Test) so we don't a) kill others, b) kill ourselves.
I got the test done on my guitar amp for a wedding. Set up on the day, did the sound check and immediately received a shock from the mic I sang through. Not the full whack, but a shaker. Bloody PA! I thought. The sound guy couldn't find anything wrong either. Bloody sound guy!
The bride and groom asked to borrow my guitar during the break for a short set of their stuff. I reluctantly agreed thinking on balance it would be unfriendly to refuse.
Nothing happened to them but on return to the techie who'd done the test it emerged that I hadn't actually supplied the kettle lead that I'd used for him to test when he did the amp. It failed immediately.
I often wonder whether the MU public liability insurance would have covered the duel death of the erstwhile happy couple and how my defence that I had at least partially tested my equipment would have gone down with the grieving relatives.
Posts: 15722
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
So interesting. Several years ago my agent told me that I needed to provide liability insurance for my band for a corporate gig. I said he should have told me before he quoted the job, and he said that I needed to accept it because it was only going to happen more and more. And I thought about it and realized that as the leader if some drunk guest tripped over a cord, or a bandmember did something stupid, I could get sued.
Only a few times this happened to me I called BS on it. First of all, it is not the band’s responsibility. What this is, is the VENUE trying to put the responsibility on the CLIENT which is already a red flag, but still, they are then putting it on the Band. It could be because said venue had some problem in the past and don’t want the headache ever again, but honestly this is too damn bad, it is how life works. Like you have a party at your home, guess who is responsible for bad **** that happens? Everybody knows this, and it is preposterous to force your guests to sign a waiver, but to be honest, bands should be fine to simply do that as part of a contract or something. Nobody should be wasting a dime on “liability insurance” other than the damn VENUE that is the one actually making money on the event. Venders provide a food menu and it is on the client to warn the guests about food allergy, and a big etc. A band or DJ or whatever has nothing to do with this stuff. The venue is scared for a guitar player getting a drunk girl flirting and then the boyfriend get in fight. They want that to be on the client/band not the venue which is frankly not how life works. I have suggested to brides and such to change venue, problem solved.
Posts: 2006
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Ricardo)
Well of course I agree but the reality is you could get sued. It doesn't mean they will win, but if they do, you won't have to sell your guitars if you bought the coverage.
My day gig business is selling commercial flooring projects. I have employee installers. I spend so much on insurance of every kind-worker's comp for my guys, liability in case someone trips in my warehouse or my guys do something. Commercial auto....literally tens of thousands in premiums every year and zero losses.....so far. Providing that insurance is part of the contracts. No insurance, no job.
Hell, car insurance has become so expensive-what a a business, collect premiums, then try to not pay claims.....and homeowners in CA-you can't even get fire insurance in many parts of the state now.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
So interesting. Several years ago my agent told me that I needed to provide liability insurance for my band for a corporate gig. I said he should have told me before he quoted the job, and he said that I needed to accept it because it was only going to happen more and more. And I thought about it and realized that as the leader if some drunk guest tripped over a cord, or a bandmember did something stupid, I could get sued.
Only a few times this happened to me I called BS on it. First of all, it is not the band’s responsibility. What this is, is the VENUE trying to put the responsibility on the CLIENT which is already a red flag, but still, they are then putting it on the Band. It could be because said venue had some problem in the past and don’t want the headache ever again, but honestly this is too damn bad, it is how life works. Like you have a party at your home, guess who is responsible for bad **** that happens? Everybody knows this, and it is preposterous to force your guests to sign a waiver, but to be honest, bands should be fine to simply do that as part of a contract or something. Nobody should be wasting a dime on “liability insurance” other than the damn VENUE that is the one actually making money on the event. Venders provide a food menu and it is on the client to warn the guests about food allergy, and a big etc. A band or DJ or whatever has nothing to do with this stuff. The venue is scared for a guitar player getting a drunk girl flirting and then the boyfriend get in fight. They want that to be on the client/band not the venue which is frankly not how life works. I have suggested to brides and such to change venue, problem solved.
Posts: 15722
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
Well of course I agree but the reality is you could get sued. It doesn't mean they will win, but if they do, you won't have to sell your guitars if you bought the coverage.
See it is the opposite mind set here. It is not worth to sue some poor band member who lives and sleeps on the girlfriend’s couch. Once you get suckered into “liability insurance”, then you become a target since you have some money to sue for. Contracts and stuff don’t matter. Contracts get broken all the time and the people that win can’t get blood from a stone. I know people who won cases for 10 to 20 grand, and even though they win, the person being sued having no money paid out NOTHING. Insurance companies have the money, and as soon as you gamble with that, you are now worth persuing.
Back on topic, I noticed another member from India espousing the same false assumption that India has ZERO gigs or interest in flamenco (in intros). I am curious if anybody in India has contacted the lady I linked to? She seems very active and calling out to aficionados to get involved.
Posts: 2006
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Ricardo)
This is true, you are pretty safe if you have no assets. But a judgement is good for ten years. Lots of musicians get a day gig at some point, and you wouldn't want your wages getting attached. When people sue, they can name everyone. The agent, the venue, the band...... The only additional cost is the process server. If I was still doing corporates, I'd buy the insurance and add the cost to the quote. Let the client pay for their "protection"
It's a messed up world.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
Well of course I agree but the reality is you could get sued. It doesn't mean they will win, but if they do, you won't have to sell your guitars if you bought the coverage.
See it is the opposite mind set here. It is not worth to sue some poor band member who lives and sleeps on the girlfriend’s couch. Once you get suckered into “liability insurance”, then you become a target since you have some money to sue for. Contracts and stuff don’t matter. Contracts get broken all the time and the people that win can’t get blood from a stone. I know people who won cases for 10 to 20 grand, and even though they win, the person being sued having no money paid out NOTHING. Insurance companies have the money, and as soon as you gamble with that, you are now worth persuing.
Back on topic, I noticed another member from India espousing the same false assumption that India has ZERO gigs or interest in flamenco (in intros). I am curious if anybody in India has contacted the lady I linked to? She seems very active and calling out to aficionados to get involved.
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Ricardo)
It's because the incentive to work as a flamenco guitarist simply isn't there here Ricardo. You need to understand that every country has an entirely different music culture. It's not about flamenco either, guitar as an instrument itself simply isn't popular here. Most guitarists here need to be good vocalists too because Indian music is focused more on vocals. All guitar teachers I know here also teach vocals since that what the public demands to learn mostly. You can survive as a instrumentalist here, but you would need to be a good classical Indian musician , for eg, tabla, or sitar.
And that lady you're talking about in Mumbai. I'm not sure how active she's , I do not think she is. But anyways, Mumbai is filthy expensive. People struggle to survive here with massive white collar salaries, I can't begin to imagine how a musician would survive there lol.
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Ricardo)
A more important thing, is audience really doesn't matter that much. Most people don't give a crap about music either ways. It's the community that would matter. If spain itself doesn't have a decent flamenco audience , I'm damn sure it's even marginal where you live. However, the important thing to note though is there's still a community of like minded flamenco guitarist who you can play with or get inspired from. What good would it be to be a lone or one of the few flamenco guitarist in a country ? Zero inspiration.
Posts: 15722
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
And that lady you're talking about in Mumbai. I'm not sure how active she's , I do not think she is. But anyways, Mumbai is filthy expensive. People struggle to survive here with massive white collar salaries, I can't begin to imagine how a musician would survive there lol.
Which tells me you did not even bother to reach out to her and discuss your situation. Instead you have already made up your mind and only wanted to vent frustration regarding your own decision making. The world is what we make of it amigo. Good luck.
quote:
What good would it be to be a lone or one of the few flamenco guitarist in a country ? Zero inspiration.
To be frank, you have no clue about it because you are not willing to network and discover that reality, right or wrong. You are “imagining” how things might be and making assumptions in the negative. Search and you will find.
Posts: 15722
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
What am I complaining about?
“Is it worth becoming a flamenco guitarist?” ….
(especially if I have decided I will not put in the effort required to do so and would rather blame others around me that likely lack interest? Oh, and hurray there are others that agree with me it is not worth as they have also long ago given up on the idea, this is richly self affirming. F liability insurance, fake dog blood, playing Bollywood Bamboleo, and electrocuting brides on the gig… I am getting a day job! )
Posts: 15722
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
lots of assumptions there man
Zero assumptions in the last post, it is entirely based on what was discussed and admitted in this thread. Stop venting and contact that lady. She will put you on the right path to begin your network journey. Thank me later.
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
Is is worth it to become a guitarist?
It depends. Use the guitar as a songwriting tool.
"Guitar playing, in and of itself, does not mean a whole heck of a lot. But guitar playing with in the context of great music and great songs is a big deal. If you look at the guitarists who are most noted for their playing ability, you will find that their reputations are inextricably tied to the great songs they have written, or at least reinterpreted in their own unique ways. We appreciate the guitar-playing skills of Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page and others within the context of their songs."
Posts: 15722
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
How do I approach her. What do I message her? Thinking of finally doing it
Just say you are learning flamenco guitar, you can play in compas with a metronome the following palos (list in order of your most confident to least), and say you would like to meet and learn more, perhaps play for a nearby dance class if any are going on. If they already have a guitarist, get in contact and humbly request to join in, or at least audit for free (watch, with your guitar in the case) until you are ready. Hopefully the dance instructor is also wiling to give free time to rehearse before or after class if you want to get more advanced understanding, or prepare for next class, etc. In most cases everyone will be happy you are onboard. Don't worry about 1. getting taken advantage of, or 2. being made an example of, etc., just go with the flow at first. Once you get the hang of it you will know what to do next. (Maybe they hire you for shows, or you need to charge them to play for boring classes, etc., who knows yet where it will go).
Posts: 15722
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
it's good to think of the worst case
of course. A realist. or as my wife says "pessimist". glass half empty, world is gonna end, all hope is lost, etc. Try to keep positive and make the best of the situation. If not there is always trash removal, scamming, selling drugs, male prostitution, human trafficking, suicide, etc. LOTS of options!
Seriously, the world is what we make of it. Make things happen as you envision them.
Posts: 2876
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Is is worth it to become a guita... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
(Maybe they hire you for shows, or you need to charge them to play for boring classes, etc., who knows yet where it will go).
I finally went back to accompanying dance classes after about 6 years away. I must say I was reticent. All my old fears coming back.... what if they do some obscure palo I dont know? Have a I got enough material? what if there's another guitartist and I feel like im imposing? (basically the 'what if i fail?!' voice in my head)
Well turns out they are doing Tangos, easy! I have plenty of material as the class is moving slowly and, as usual, I'm just really playing the same 8 compases over and over, (zzzz) and yes theres another guitarist. He used to dance in those classes before and I know him. Hes really friendly and after 1st class he added me to the London flamenco whats app group for events and jams and meet ups "you should come play with us, our group" etc
So yeah just getting involved and doing it opens up all kinds of paths. I'm a terrible procrastinator (fear of failure) and I'm tired of leaving things for some fear that I won't be good enough. I don't know if you are the same at all but sounds a little like you might be. If so, I suggest you face up and get involved. do it. you really have nothing to lose apart from few dents in your ego...but that will only make you stronger....(I think)
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