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Thumb Rest Stroke VS Free Stroke in arpeggios and tremolo
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Ricardo
Posts: 15165
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Thumb Rest Stroke VS Free Stroke... (in reply to trivium91)
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quote:
I’m simply asking why it seems they do more free strokes in general, I really don’t see grisha using rest strokes with arpeggios or tremolo, my hand placement looks similar to his and I’m wondering if that is ok to do. Grisha was a classical guitarist, and so was I. To be totally fair and honest….you are noticing a shortcoming in self taught individuals that learned by ear. I am saying that as one of the same. I had to “unlearn” the classical freestroke thumb as it seemed unnatural to rest a bass and play a treble simultaneously like pat the head rub the belly type coordination. It basically slows you down for a while until you internalize the feeling. I spoke with Grisha privately once about a certain piece where I notice it totally affects the sound. If you did not know it, in the early years of Grisha’s videos he would get criticized for not sounding flamenco enough etc…but nobody that was criticizing him seemed to realize a small technical issue regarding the apoyando thumb that massively affects the sound. I remember some people figured jealousy since Grisha plays orders of magnitude faster than everybody else, matching paco and Sabicas note for note etc. Well I discussed one piece with him where I suggested he take the time to get it the right way because it would sound “better” or more flamenco or whatever, and he admitted he did try it and it slowed his tempo far below what he needed to perform. I totally get it…it is like you are saying, it is too many years of having learned to avoid the technique. Encountering students that are beginner they don’t have this problem because they don’t have the 10k hours of training tirando pulgar opposite fingers. I treat all my personal students as beginners in this regard because the classical and big etc guitar players that start with flamenco after years of some other style, have a huge advantage but they simply can’t see that with regard to these little issues. It is so much easier to make excuses (Sabicas or PDL used a tirando thumb in these important spots!!! Etc). The point is, lesser players than yourselves CAN do it, and so can you. Rather than considering it as “unlearning” an old habit for the same music…pretend it is simply BRAND NEW music starting from scratch using a novel technical device.
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Date Apr. 22 2024 11:49:06
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trivium91
Posts: 236
Joined: Jan. 24 2022
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RE: Thumb Rest Stroke VS Free Stroke... (in reply to Ricardo)
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[image][/image] quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo quote:
I’m simply asking why it seems they do more free strokes in general, I really don’t see grisha using rest strokes with arpeggios or tremolo, my hand placement looks similar to his and I’m wondering if that is ok to do. Grisha was a classical guitarist, and so was I. To be totally fair and honest….you are noticing a shortcoming in self taught individuals that learned by ear. I am saying that as one of the same. I had to “unlearn” the classical freestroke thumb as it seemed unnatural to rest a bass and play a treble simultaneously like pat the head rub the belly type coordination. It basically slows you down for a while until you internalize the feeling. I spoke with Grisha privately once about a certain piece where I notice it totally affects the sound. If you did not know it, in the early years of Grisha’s videos he would get criticized for not sounding flamenco enough etc…but nobody that was criticizing him seemed to realize a small technical issue regarding the apoyando thumb that massively affects the sound. I remember some people figured jealousy since Grisha plays orders of magnitude faster than everybody else, matching paco and Sabicas note for note etc. Well I discussed one piece with him where I suggested he take the time to get it the right way because it would sound “better” or more flamenco or whatever, and he admitted he did try it and it slowed his tempo far below what he needed to perform. I totally get it…it is like you are saying, it is too many years of having learned to avoid the technique. Encountering students that are beginner they don’t have this problem because they don’t have the 10k hours of training tirando pulgar opposite fingers. I treat all my personal students as beginners in this regard because the classical and big etc guitar players that start with flamenco after years of some other style, have a huge advantage but they simply can’t see that with regard to these little issues. It is so much easier to make excuses (Sabicas or PDL used a tirando thumb in these important spots!!! Etc). The point is, lesser players than yourselves CAN do it, and so can you. Rather than considering it as “unlearning” an old habit for the same music…pretend it is simply BRAND NEW music starting from scratch using a novel technical device. Thanks Ricardo, this is really awesome information and it helps out a ton. So in other words its a personal choice, but its definitely necessary to learn the rest stroke to get more of a flamenco sound. Ill keep at it, I guess its just like learning any of the other flamenco techniques as it takes time, but eventually it will become second nature. I also did not know you started off with classical. I guess I just take it one falsetta at a time, really loving Flamencoexplained.com for the falsettas. It's basically like having the teacher right there with you, minus the feedback of course.
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Date Apr. 22 2024 15:12:34
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trivium91
Posts: 236
Joined: Jan. 24 2022
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RE: Thumb Rest Stroke VS Free Stroke... (in reply to elias)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: elias Just practice it super slowly. Thumb rest stroke felt incredibly awkward and constraining for me at first but now I love it and think it's really fun. Just keep practising. Just an update guys, progress has been good but hit a snag with consistency since I noticed that my arpeggios are choppy sounding and my fingers are still catching. I also met with my classical/flamenco teacher, ironically he uses mostly rest stroke thumb so I can learn alot from him. So my rest stroke is generally ok but it is the simple fact that my fingers are not parallel to the fret board, and im not able to severely angle my wrist down to do it. That basically means my fingers are not coming off the strings nicely, and my thumb is getting in the way. It was fine with free stroke as I had more room with my fingers, but now with the rest stroke I really have to lock the hand in one position and thats where I run into issues. This is a good thing though as my teacher said I move my hand too much anyways when changing techniques, especially picado. My old position has my right leg on a foot stool, or crosslegged with the fretboard pretty level, thats how I've been playing for a long time. Well I believe that position was holding me back. The Classical position does not work as the guitar is too pointed upwards, and too far to the left which makes some techniques harder. I just tried one of the metal guitar stands with suction cups that rests it on the left leg, though I adjust it so the guitar is more in the middle of my body. It's perfect, it brings the fretboard up nice and high, though not as high as the classical position. It keeps the guitar more centred and angles the strings perfectly for my fingers. In addition my thumb now has more reach to get out of the way of my fingers, my hand position does not change as much when doing picado, I dont have to lift my shoulder completely up. After watching sabicas videos, he pretty much sits the same way as this new position im trying, though I get that way with the metal tri-stand VS a footstool on the left foot that sabicas does. Im also short like sabicas, basically 5, 6" so this might have something to do with it. This new position I would say is a hybrid of the traditional flamenco position and the classical position. As a bonus fretting on my left hand so much easier on the wrist especially with bar cords. The downside is, it does not look cool like cross legged, but who cares.
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Date Apr. 29 2024 16:27:48
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