Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due to lack of teacher
Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
quote:
. I guess it's the tempo/metronome that stresses me out the most.
Interesting. I always found toque libre more stressful. Metronome feels like a safety net to me. But expressing ideas in libre Palos...??
For you it is the exact opposite advice. Play the toque libre in COMPÁS with metronome. Even the stuff that looks odd meter, like the 10 beat ligados of Taranta or whatever, Force them into triplet feel or 4 or 8 feel, and everything starts smoothing out. And over time you get even a wider sense of phrasing that has a rhythmic drive underneath. When I recorded my Rondeña years ago with ToddK I did 2 takes and he thought it was pretty crazy that even though there was no click track, the two takes lined up almost exactly. This would likely be the case for any flamenco guitarist or singer, even dancers, the subconscious timing that goes on with toque and cante libre. In my case, not many people have pointed out to me to recognize that all I did was take the Compás OUT of the buleria version of the same falsetas, and express them stretched and lyrically. The bulerias Compás was still part of the phrasing, just slower and NOT metronomic.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Stu)
I wouldn't rule out a link between Buleria and Bulgaria. Gitanos crossed through Bulgaria on their way to Andalucia. There's still a large gitano community living in Bulgaria today.
Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
I wouldn't rule out a link between Buleria and Bulgaria. Gitanos crossed through Bulgaria on their way to Andalucia. There's still a large gitano community living in Bulgaria today.
You should forget about getting a flamenco guitar, and become a flamencologist.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Ricardo)
I absolutely love listening to Flamenco, I think I realized what I dislike about playing/practising it. It's having to play in compass, beat for beat and having to deal with up beats and down beats. It's so restrictive, and when you make guitar your life it feels like a prison. Once i get a piece half sounding decent, I hate grinding out the rythym to make it perfect with the compas. It's just so restrictive, and having to focus so much on the rythym means im not focusing on expression and the sound. I guess this is why I want to pursue classical. Though I think I will still play some of the free styles such as granainas like Ricardo mentioned, to keep my fingers fast and because I enjoy it. Ill probably dabble in some solea/siguiriyas falsettas within compas aswell since they are slower and the extra attention to rythym can only make me a better classical player. I just dont want my whole guitar life to consist of 12 beats and up and down beats that I MUST play on. I suppose do don't have if your not playing for dancers. That said playing in time should be every flamenco players goal anyways, to keep grinding out the rythym and playing in the compass. Thats why we all practice & perform with a compas track.
Posts: 2538
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
This doesn't make sense to me at all
Compas is restrictive? I know all our brains can work a little differently but nailing a difficult falseta in compass or a rythmic passage bang on is hugely exhilirating I think. I feel like it's a safety net in many ways. A framework. Especially when learning a new bit.
I mean what do you want to express that playing in time isn't letting you? Some kind of Avant guard ethereal noodlings.
I'd wager that if one can't play in time, any expression one does in a free form piece would be sloppy and immature. No offense...
Kinda sounds like....I don't really like playing tennis because I prefer to hit a shuttlecock.
My advice would be.... Take up badminton then.
So maybe youre right maybe flamenco isn't right for you?
You should get a kick out of the compas! I can't see why it should be an issue.
Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
quote:
It's so restrictive, and when you make guitar your life it feels like a prison. Once i get a piece half sounding decent, I hate grinding out the rythym to make it perfect with the compas. It's just so restrictive, and having to focus so much on the rythym means im not focusing on expression and the sound.
Again, your view is the wrong one, but I would be rehashing here. The point is, when you learn someone else’s creation, they had created from that rhythmic vantage point at the start. In other words, that WAS the expression and sound. Intrinsically tied together. The method you are using, playing only the notes and stringing them together without their intrinsic feeling, means that once you have the entire piece memorized, then you turn on the metronome to figure out all the little incorrect timing expressions you have internalized and now trying to correct them. This is the “hard way” to learn something rhythmic. You have to take it in chunks of pure rhythmic feeling until a functional falseta is constructed from the first to last note. That way, no faulty timing is assigned to ANY note.
Whenever I have learned music in the past, the way you are doing it, it is inevitable I end up with TWO versions of the same melody stuck in my head. One, the way I heard it and practiced it WRONG, then the new corrected version. This is highly frustrating and inefficient, and I totally get your frustration. But it is simply due to your approach. Classical music that is supposed to have some sort of rhythmic assignment is actually no different. Guitar players in general have this problem. I fear that even going down the path of a different genre won’t make this problem disappear.
As I said, nothing wrong with knowingly going the easy path. If what is truly eating at you is that you actually do want to get it right, then to truly find peace in this world, do what I said before and chunk those falsetas beat by beat as a new approach to learning.
john Williams cared enough to work it out as falsetas in rhythm, but this is (frighteningly) rare, so again, don’t feel bad:
And then there is this, which is hilariously stressful, but come on kid!!
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
quote:
It's just so restrictive, and having to focus so much on the rythym means im not focusing on expression and the sound. I guess this is why I want to pursue classical.
I used to share your view, in that I focused more importance on practicing sound and expression than being in compas. I think I get what your saying. One thing is that compas is part of the expression, it just might not seem like it until it becomes more ingrained. Kind of like the first time you had your first drink of alcohol. Didnt like it? Why not just drink grape juice instead of wine? Well, then its not the same anymore. *Look at me, sounding like Morante and stuff*
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
It's so restrictive, and when you make guitar your life it feels like a prison. Once i get a piece half sounding decent, I hate grinding out the rythym to make it perfect with the compas. It's just so restrictive, and having to focus so much on the rythym means im not focusing on expression and the sound.
Again, your view is the wrong one, but I would be rehashing here. The point is, when you learn someone else’s creation, they had created from that rhythmic vantage point at the start. In other words, that WAS the expression and sound. Intrinsically tied together. The method you are using, playing only the notes and stringing them together without their intrinsic feeling, means that once you have the entire piece memorized, then you turn on the metronome to figure out all the little incorrect timing expressions you have internalized and now trying to correct them. This is the “hard way” to learn something rhythmic. You have to take it in chunks of pure rhythmic feeling until a functional falseta is constructed from the first to last note. That way, no faulty timing is assigned to ANY note.
Whenever I have learned music in the past, the way you are doing it, it is inevitable I end up with TWO versions of the same melody stuck in my head. One, the way I heard it and practiced it WRONG, then the new corrected version. This is highly frustrating and inefficient, and I totally get your frustration. But it is simply due to your approach. Classical music that is supposed to have some sort of rhythmic assignment is actually no different. Guitar players in general have this problem. I fear that even going down the path of a different genre won’t make this problem disappear.
As I said, nothing wrong with knowingly going the easy path. If what is truly eating at you is that you actually do want to get it right, then to truly find peace in this world, do what I said before and chunk those falsetas beat by beat as a new approach to learning.
john Williams cared enough to work it out as falsetas in rhythm, but this is (frighteningly) rare, so again, don’t feel bad:
And then there is this, which is hilariously stressful, but come on kid!!
You're right about my approach any everything being wrong. I would learn to play the falsetta first than try to bring in the timing and compas after. That said, I guess the rhythm and syncopation is much harder in flamenco than classical, i feel like it's a grind every time to the point where it was not fun anymore. Classical rhythms are pretty simple, it would seem that I just dont have strong rythym. I got burnt out trying to grind it out night after night try to get better at it. My rythym has improved substantially, however it's still a weakness that I have. I feel like for some people rythym is more natural, and others have to work harder at it. Im really strong with the finger patterns and visualization of the fretboard, than remembering that where others have to work harder at it. In classical (how I was trained) you use a metronome to get the rhythm down when learning a piece, but after a while the metronome goes away (for that piece) and you are free to play and perform it how you feel it should sound, at least as far as rythym goes. In fact playing in time with a classical piece is frowned upon as it's seen as playing robotically. You can hold notes a bit longer in sections and emphasize others, speed up in sections a bit where you feel it will complement the piece, ect. I would say it depends on what you are playing though and kudos to John Williams recognizing that the rhythm is really important in a piece he was playing intended for dance. In classical Its rubato but it's more extreme to where you could be missing beats, but for the purpose of expression. That said, no one is counting beats in classical guitar like they are in flamenco either.
I am learning a few sabicas Solea falsettas from flamenco explained actually, well see how that goes. Kai really explains the rythym in the videos much more clearly. The way he teaches is how you describe, incorporating the rhythm and compass as you learn the piece. It alot better than trying to learn something from YouTube where nothing is properly explained.
Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
quote:
In fact playing in time with a classical piece is frowned upon as it's seen as playing robotically. You can hold notes a bit longer in sections and emphasize others, speed up in sections a bit where you feel it will complement the piece.
Sadly, this is a general belief based on an outright lie. The proof is in the pudding where you quickly discover the “slower” expressive part is exactly in the spot that is difficult to do and maintain a solid tempo and feel of subdivisions. Then the easy passages are rushed as if to exciting effect. A very “dishonest” expression of rhythm. Ironically, for guitar players, it was Segovia, guilty of this very thing, told a student “it is in the subtle disrespect of the rhythm that you define the good or bad artist”. Meaning, yes if you truly could control the tempo a player would stretch it deliberately…Which is exactly what the flamenco players DO with toque libre or even siguiriyas that is measured, and ironically the classical guitarists, EVEN ROBOTIC JOHN WILLIAMS!!!, is caught time and time again, eating beats to jump the left hand, or rushing passages that are easy, etc., a “nice tuneful classical approach like SEgovia would do”, his own words. Sorry, but that is an excuse for losing the feeling behind the individual notes and their intrinsic timing, and is basically CHEATING, to excuse it as rubato. Glen Gould, accused of robotic interpretations, when I played along I felt him drag the tempo in certain spots, where he basically lost the narrative from my perspective of feeling. Still, I enjoyed playing along with his version because all others are deplorable IMO. And piano is not as hard as guitar to keep tempo like that.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
e feeling behind the individual notes and their intrinsic timing, and is basically CHEATING, to excuse it as rubato. Glen Gould, accused of robotic interpretations, when I played along I felt him drag the tempo in certain spots, where he basically lost the narrative from my perspective of feeling. Still, I enjoyed playing along with his version because all others are deplorable IMO. And piano is not as hard as guitar to keep tempo like that.
Makes sense, well either way I feel rhythm is always going to be my weakness no matter how hard I try. I just get lost in the music I guess would be one way to describe why this occurs. Therefore, choosing the most rhythmically advanced guitar genre there is likely was not a good move for me. Still though, all the flamenco exposure & training i've had would only improve one's classical playing. Im learning a classical waltz for example, I can hold time with the metronome but it's relatively simple because it's just basically composed in duplets. Some of the other stuff has 16th notes and triplets, still pretty simple though. Most of the classical rhythms are simple compared to Flamenco, it's rather refreshing to play to say the least, it's more relaxing and not because of the pace or sound but because the simple rhythms are much easier to follow. Playing flamenco rhythms reminds me a bit of patting the head and tapping the stomach at the same time.
Posts: 2538
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
Surely this is just a matter of keeping at it and it will become familiar. If you are happy playing a waltz in time. What's the difference? It's all just a click track really isn't it? Play a fandangos.
It's not the compass then ... It's the complexity of the music within it? Maybe you're playing stuff that's too difficult?
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Stu)
Thanks guys, I think im still going to pursue flamenco, though my struggle was being too motivated and obsessed in the past with it and just lacking the time to get the practice goals that I wanted which was a source of anxiety for me. Guitar is supposed to be relaxing, is it not? Even Flamenco should be mindful and meditative when practicing. I've been working on some sabicas and Montoya solea falsettas from flamenco explained and really enjoying it, even with the metronome. I wanted to be a really good player and kept pushing but I guess thats not realistic given everything else going on my life. Having a realistic practice goal of 45-60 minutes a day is all I can give right now.That said, just to play it and understand it should be enough. I just have to enjoy it and make small improvements. Also to stop focusing on the future and just enjoy learning it in the moment. That said if a classical piece or something else snags me eye, no reason I can't learn that either even if my main focus is on flamenco. Im supposed to meet the teacher at the end of the month, he said he can get me pretty far into flamenco training so thats reassuring. Classical is not any easier anyways (for some reason I thought it was), while one might be grinding out the rythym in flamenco, a classical player is grinding out the melody and it's pretty tricky getting a really clean sound with the complex left hand fingerings. I actually believe classical in the advanced levels are harder overall, though classical is easier for a beginner to learn due to all the flamenco techniques required to play a song.
Also as you said Stu, the pieces were maybe too complex for my rhythmic understanding or the program I was on just gave no context. I had basically no technical limitation to play some of the more advanced stuff but I likely needed to slow it right down. That said I love how Kai's videos break everything down and explains this is triplets, or this is 16th notes, it's extremely helpful. I guess I tried to swallow the whole whale and got burnt out. The nice part is I can focus on solea and siguiriyas (which I love anyways) and develop my rythym. For some reason A minor and the Phrygian scales really speak to me in flamenco, so classical does not speak to me the same way though it still does in a different way because the repertoire is so vast.
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
...you quickly discover the “slower” expressive part is exactly in the spot that is difficult to do and maintain a solid tempo and feel of subdivisions.
Yeah, even some flamenco guitarists do that. Tone above all else, and, if you get in a jam, just slow down the tempo. Like someone using fancy words that they have to pronounce carefully.
Shortly after the release of Paco's version of Concierto de Aranjuez, he said in an interview that classical guitarists slow down for the harder parts and that his version aimed to fix that.
Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Planning to pursue classical due... (in reply to trivium91)
quote:
The nice part is I can focus on solea and siguiriyas (which I love anyways) and develop my rythym. For some reason A minor and the Phrygian scales really speak to me in flamenco, so classical does not speak to me the same way though it still does in a different way because the repertoire is so vast.
Classical guitarists have dipped their toes into the expansive Renaissance vihuela tablature, arranging some for normal classical guitar. I have discovered a treasure trove of PHRYGIAN material in the repertoire that is usually overlooked. I have enjoyed skipping the classical middle man and going right for the tabs as they are pretty easy to read if you simply tune your guitar like Ramon MOntoya’s Rondeña. Some pieces in Narvaez, Fuenllana, and Mudarra have literally the same typical voicings we use in Rondeñas flamenco guitar solos. Only I adjust a few bass notes on the low string (such as the 2 below move to 4, and add some open D’s if you like, such as in measure 4 and 10). It even turned out (so far) Fuenllana has no less than SIX pieces using the literal tuning with drop D and third to F# that Montoya developed. But what is more interesting to me are the Phrygian pieces in other tonalities using that tuning….such as D Phrygian or B Phrygian, etc. Players like Sanlucar, Nuñez, and Tomatito, have ventured only briefly into that terrritory with this tuning. (Manolo has two short falsetas, Tomatito has an entire buleria in B, and Nuñez a Solea in D….but it is hilarious to me how much they align with that old vihuela stuff conceptually on the fingerboard).
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread