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I've meant to post questions on this forum many times, but I always found the answers or solutions through searching and experimenting before I did. Now I have not, so here I am like a beetle on its back waving its legs in the air.
I've only immersed myself in playing (if you can call it that) Soleares.
I feel like it's "my thing."
I have an obsession with Escobilla to the point where the people around me have probably grown to hate it with passion.
My second most favorite palo is Bulería. Often when I'm doodling around with my unorthodox, non-muy flamenco renderings of Soleá, it typically reaches the point where I feel that it would naturally progress into Bulería - and it makes me feel handicapped lacking the ability to ride that wave. I feel like I have the spirit but this realm is out of reach, and I really want to speak this language.
I have watched dozens of tutorials, even purchased some courses, and the pattern is that every time I watch a video, I think I understand some new aspect of it, but I'll never be able to apply anything I thought I'd learned.
My biggest problem seems to be that I have an absolutely abysmal sense of rhythm. I've gathered that this is an idiosyncrasy of mine that I have to find ways to cope with. I've tried a metronome and it was definitely helpful, but another problem is that I absolutely can't count while playing. What makes it even more difficult is the lore about typically counting from the "last" (12.) beat, except when you don't for some reason.
Then there's the accents on 12, 3, 6, 8 and 10 - the last of which is supposed to wrap up (remate) the cycle. Sometimes the accent goes on 7 instead of 8, which is even more difficult for me to follow - but I don't worry about that particularity at this point, just shaking my fist here.
Next we have the upbeats that are intrinsic to how this style "breathes." I have enough difficulty just keeping track of the downbeats, so this is another source of my frustrations in trying to develop structural awareness of how I'm proceeding through the compás.
Another quintessential, and - due to difficulties in facets mentioned above - frustratingly difficult element is what's not there, i.e. the empty space, the "air", the silence and subtle fading harmonics that instill meaning into what was said before and what is coming next. Taking into account that I have a difficult time just knowing when I've come a full circle, couldn't count to save my life, have sub-par innate rhythmic sense, and can't seem to develop intuition for the punctuation points in the compás, this "nothing" is like the final boss to me, and yet I feel like it might be essential for developing that feel for the currents running through Bulerías and mounting this wild horse.
Just for the record, I'm not overly ambitious about mastering this difficult palo. I just want to get a basic, simple, down-to-earth groove going, but I just can't seem to be able to take even the first steps.
I don't even have a specific question, I'm just hoping that someone would come up with some trick or exercise or make me notice something that eludes me, by insight, by accident, or just sheer luck. External references (videos, books, articles, etc.) also welcome (although I've been through quite a few, but I'll give anything a try).
RE: I, too, need help with Bulerías (in reply to swampflower)
I was like you, found it impossible to count, but now Bulerias is my strongest palo, not boasting but I've gotten to the point where I can play Bulerias in compas without counting it.
So what helped ? Start slow, and always practice with a metronome.
1.) make sure you can play solea in compas with a metronome, play a few compases and a falseta or 2 in loop repeatedly over and over with the metronome
2.) do not go into Bulerias from solea. I did it and I'd to come back to solea again. Bulerias has a groove, solea doesn't, so if you go from solea to Bulerias directly, it'll be very very difficult.
3.) After you have done 1. go to Tangos. Tangos is groove but isn't complicated , so this will really help you understand how groove is meant to work on flamenco. Same thing as solea, practice a few compases and a falseta in loop
4.) While working on these 2, simultaneously work on your right hand technique. Bulerias requires a good technique so make sure before you start Bulerias, you don't have too many weaknesses.
5.) After you do Solea and Tangos, switch to Bulerias but do not start playing complicated stuff right away. Practice the most basic pattern for Bulerias , the por media chord progression with accents on 12, 3 ,6 , 8, 10 in loops with a metronome, but do not play it at Bulerias tempo. Start at 100bpm, it won't feel like a Bulerias and that's fine. From 100, increase the tempo by 10bpm very slowly only when you're comfortable with the current tempo until you reach the 200bpm and above point. Do not practice anything else in Bulerias until you've this pattern extremely strong, to the point you can play it while sleeping.
I recommend a subscription to Flamencoexplained.com
Posts: 14887
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I, too, need help with Bulerías (in reply to swampflower)
quote:
ORIGINAL: swampflower
I've meant to post questions on this forum many times, but I always found the answers or solutions through searching and experimenting before I did. Now I have not, so here I am like a beetle on its back waving its legs in the air.
I've only immersed myself in playing (if you can call it that) Soleares.
I feel like it's "my thing."
I have an obsession with Escobilla to the point where the people around me have probably grown to hate it with passion.
My second most favorite palo is Bulería. Often when I'm doodling around with my unorthodox, non-muy flamenco renderings of Soleá, it typically reaches the point where I feel that it would naturally progress into Bulería - and it makes me feel handicapped lacking the ability to ride that wave. I feel like I have the spirit but this realm is out of reach, and I really want to speak this language.
I have watched dozens of tutorials, even purchased some courses, and the pattern is that every time I watch a video, I think I understand some new aspect of it, but I'll never be able to apply anything I thought I'd learned.
My biggest problem seems to be that I have an absolutely abysmal sense of rhythm. I've gathered that this is an idiosyncrasy of mine that I have to find ways to cope with. I've tried a metronome and it was definitely helpful, but another problem is that I absolutely can't count while playing. What makes it even more difficult is the lore about typically counting from the "last" (12.) beat, except when you don't for some reason.
Then there's the accents on 12, 3, 6, 8 and 10 - the last of which is supposed to wrap up (remate) the cycle. Sometimes the accent goes on 7 instead of 8, which is even more difficult for me to follow - but I don't worry about that particularity at this point, just shaking my fist here.
Next we have the upbeats that are intrinsic to how this style "breathes." I have enough difficulty just keeping track of the downbeats, so this is another source of my frustrations in trying to develop structural awareness of how I'm proceeding through the compás.
Another quintessential, and - due to difficulties in facets mentioned above - frustratingly difficult element is what's not there, i.e. the empty space, the "air", the silence and subtle fading harmonics that instill meaning into what was said before and what is coming next. Taking into account that I have a difficult time just knowing when I've come a full circle, couldn't count to save my life, have sub-par innate rhythmic sense, and can't seem to develop intuition for the punctuation points in the compás, this "nothing" is like the final boss to me, and yet I feel like it might be essential for developing that feel for the currents running through Bulerías and mounting this wild horse.
Just for the record, I'm not overly ambitious about mastering this difficult palo. I just want to get a basic, simple, down-to-earth groove going, but I just can't seem to be able to take even the first steps.
I don't even have a specific question, I'm just hoping that someone would come up with some trick or exercise or make me notice something that eludes me, by insight, by accident, or just sheer luck. External references (videos, books, articles, etc.) also welcome (although I've been through quite a few, but I'll give anything a try).
At least you are asking all the right questions, indicating you are a good student. But that is a lot to cover. Start with your escobilla transition into buleria for a start, watch Jason at the timing points indicated:
the first transition is at 5:02 but watch from 4:40, 8:17, and at 14:35 he plays some straight solea but super fast throughout the buleria so you can keep track of count 1, it’s pretty cool:
RE: I, too, need help with Bulerías (in reply to swampflower)
To simplify things, my 2 cents is to practice playing a simple ramate phrase over and over.
- You can play it with nothing but index down and up strokes. - No rest, no dead air. Add that in later. - Pick your key: say, por medio, and play A and Bb. - Index down on the count. 12,1,2,3… Index up in between - start on 12! change chords on count 3 and count 10.
Additional points: The most important part to make it sound ‘more’ like bulerías is to accent the 12, 3, and 10. So unlike Solea, only have 3 accents in this example. Beat 11 is almost silent. Make the 12 (the start) really strong to drive it in during each loop, and beat 10 is sort of ‘closure’ or period of the sentence. You could really just accent the 12 and 3 counts.
I’m trying to simplify things as much as possible. But I think if you start here, you can then start to add swing, which is really important, and get it drilled in. This is similar to how Ricardo first taught it to me a long time ago. He may have a better way now. I also think you should post here for feedback to make sure you arnt drilling in something wrong.
RE: I, too, need help with Bulerías (in reply to swampflower)
Thank you everyone for the replies, and sorry for the late response. I've been occupied , and also developed a stiffness in my right thumb probably due to bad technique and thus able to practice less.
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
2.) do not go into Bulerias from solea. I did it and I'd to come back to solea again. Bulerias has a groove, solea doesn't, so if you go from solea to Bulerias directly, it'll be very very difficult.
3.) After you have done 1. go to Tangos. Tangos is groove but isn't complicated , so this will really help you understand how groove is meant to work on flamenco. Same thing as solea, practice a few compases and a falseta in loop
4.) While working on these 2, simultaneously work on your right hand technique. Bulerias requires a good technique so make sure before you start Bulerias, you don't have too many weaknesses.
5.) After you do Solea and Tangos, switch to Bulerias but do not start playing complicated stuff right away. Practice the most basic pattern for Bulerias , the por media chord progression with accents on 12, 3 ,6 , 8, 10 in loops with a metronome, but do not play it at Bulerias tempo.
Seems like sound advice. Particularly the point about tango was something I wouldn't have thought of myself, and I'm not at all familiar with that palo. I will give it a try.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
maybe try Sevillanas, Alegrias before and Bulerias after
Noted, will check them out. Alegrías hasn't gelled with me yet, but I will see if I can find something that I like.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
At least you are asking all the right questions, indicating you are a good student.
I've been reading your posts on this forum before registering and been blown away by your knowledge, and your tutorials on EliteGuitarist were some of my first steps into flamenco. Never thought THAT GUY would compliment me. It feels meaningful almost in a poetic sense.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
But that is a lot to cover. Start with your escobilla transition into buleria for a start, watch Jason at the timing points indicated:
the first transition is at 5:02 but watch from 4:40, 8:17, and at 14:35 he plays some straight solea but super fast throughout the buleria so you can keep track of count 1, it’s pretty cool:
I have watched this video about three times now. I love the playing. My favorite part is 4:44 to the remate, and in particular the opinionated rhythmic fireworks at 4:47 (I have probably replayed it about 50 times now, trying to understand the musical proposition). I've been trying to figure out whether there is subtle rubato in the rasgueado at 4:26 or my senses get confused by the dynamics. Either way, it is lovely. I also adore the crescendo in the rasgueados from 4:44 to 4:47. There is so much intensity and so many intricate details in this performance, I could study it for hours. Sorry about the superlatives - this music just pushed my buttons.
I still haven't cracked the transition; it looks and sounds so easy, but of course it is not that (from where I stand). I will try to break it down.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonM
To simplify things, my 2 cents is to practice playing a simple ramate phrase over and over.
- You can play it with nothing but index down and up strokes. - No rest, no dead air. Add that in later. - Pick your key: say, por medio, and play A and Bb. - Index down on the count. 12,1,2,3… Index up in between - start on 12! change chords on count 3 and count 10.
I've been drilling this for a few hours now, but I think I really need to find the metronome to progress further. It feels like my inner clock keeps resetting at random times. I often find it difficult to keep in compás even in soleá. When I was younger I would have this weird effect randomly that would cause music to slow down or speed up in my mind. Maybe it's related to my issues with rhythm. I don't get the time stretch effect as much anymore, but my inner clock still sucks.
I'll consider uploading samples. I recorded an hour's worth of playing the other day, and it may well contain illustrative examples of the problems I'm having that I could excerpt out, but I'm sure that to you guys it truly is some foul stuff to listen to.
Posts: 2561
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: I, too, need help with Bulerías (in reply to swampflower)
quote:
it truly is some foul stuff to listen to.
aw man. Don't be too hard on yourself. Every single player on here has been through that stage of learning and plenty are still there. I often think self doubt/ criticism can be as helpful as it is destructive.
I still feel like my playing could be judged as foul... and that's after 20 years.
I think if you had the courage to upload youd get some helpful feedback even if it is painful.
I'm terrible at recording myself. I'm not in the habit and every time I feel the urge to, the technique instantly falls apart and I don't do it again for ages.
Posts: 1882
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: I, too, need help with Bulerías (in reply to swampflower)
It’s clear you have spent some time considering various issues such as accents, rests, etc. I think it might be helpful to focus on very small bits of compas as opposed to trying to tackle so much at once. Practice half of a compas, or one compas over and over with a metronome until it feels right, then add another. You also asked if there is a trick to make the light go on and there is. Sit with someone who knows how to play bulerias and have them play one simple compas while you imitate them. I think less analysis and more playing might help. Listening is crucial too. Slow down videos so that you can clearly hear what’s going on. Then take the time to learn a passage, very small bits at a time. But being face to face with someone who plays well will likely be extremely beneficial.
Posts: 14887
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I, too, need help with Bulerías (in reply to swampflower)
quote:
I still haven't cracked the transition; it looks and sounds so easy, but of course it is not that (from where I stand). I will try to break it down.
Start with one phrase that repeats, that you don’t ever mess up slow, and speed it up. Bass line: ABD,CEG,FEF, E arpegio. You might have to simplify the slow version a bit (for example the bass line with arpegio, you might have to replace a fancy arpegio for just the open top E string). Make sure you can speed that up along with him and the class until it becomes buleria. Keep it going as long as you need or until they stop. That is a first step in connecting the dots. Then do it with strumming chords, only use slow 8th notes at first “1&2&3&, 4&5&6&, etc.”, just index up and down on F maj, C maj, Dm/F, E. Same exercise, keep that going with the class and stop when they stop.
The last stage will be to change the way you express compas at the fast tempo once you have reached it and are maintaining. The idea is to switch between the Soleá phrase from earlier, and a more basic Buleria expression where you are not tracking the count 1,4, or 7, but rather just expressions accents 3,6, 8 etc.
RE: I, too, need help with Bulerías (in reply to Stu)
Thank you all, again, for the great tips. I very much value the time you took to help me. I will try all these suggestions and hopefully return with some audio.
I need to find the metronome that seems to be extremely well hidden. I have a decent one on iPad but it felt a bit quirky. Tried a few web browser based ones but they were a mostly awful experience. Also half-seriously contemplating making my own software metronome with novel ideas that would cater to some of my idiosyncrasies.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
aw man. Don't be too hard on yourself. Every single player on here has been through that stage of learning and plenty are still there. I often think self doubt/ criticism can be as helpful as it is destructive.
Yes, and thanks for the encouragement. To be honest, the hardest hitting feedback would be saying that I lack duende. Technically I'm bad, but can get better. My phrasing, articulation, accentuation and dynamics may be crass, but I can develop a more sophisticated taste and better execution. But, god forbid if my most intimate moments of self-expression are exposed as vapid, flimsical, musical platitudes!
I have enough optimism to take on technical challenges and I'm lucky enough to enjoy grinding exercises. But here and then when I come to question whether my music is Truth, or just pretense, that spirals me into an existential crisis. Sometimes I do catch myself getting carried away into too much self-indulgence focusing on secondary aspects such as enjoying some self-perceived brilliance in the small things I do. Even that is fine, but occasionally I've caught myself having spent a good hour on trying to impress instead of express myself. Most of the time I feel I'm being true, and I'm afraid inviting outside observers' opinions might burst that dear bubble of mine.
That said, my style is undeveloped and I can't lie even to myself that it's authentic, so I also welcome any constructive criticism. But style is different than the spirit. You don't need to buy into my metaphysics but I'm a firm believer in some things coming down to; either you have it, or you don't, and it can't be learned. I'm willing to put the foul stuff out here when I get the energy to edit together some clips that I think would serve a purpose.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
I'm terrible at recording myself. I'm not in the habit and every time I feel the urge to, the technique instantly falls apart and I don't do it again for ages.
The trick, for me, is to always record. Then you don't think about it, and you'll be able to forget about it, and when you do relax and get into the flow and do some things that make you think "I wish I'd gotten that down," it's already done. Correspondingly, on the flipside, if there was nothing worthy: delete without remorse. This approach consumes little mental resources. It's better if your recorder allows you to add markers during recording that you can jump to for the important parts afterward.
RE: I, too, need help with Bulerías (in reply to swampflower)
quote:
...my style is undeveloped and I can't lie even to myself that it's authentic,...
Develop your playing, then, and convince yourself it’s authentic. If it’s in compás and your tone isn’t horrible, it’ll probably be fine. The opinions of others are also important, but the thing is, unless you play modern, most guitarists will not like it, and there are plenty who will say it sucks even if it’s good but old school. I saw it happen to Steve Kahn, who played Morón style and focused on the playing of Paco de El Gastor. We were in a nightclub in Madrid and Steve played for some young gitano who looked astonished at first and then regained his composure and had unkind things to say. I was sitting next to Steve, and his playing was very good.
Of course, if your goal is to play modern, none of that advice will apply to you.
That said, exposing yourself to the opinions of others is part of the process. But be aware that there will always be jerks who will try to discourage you. And others who may not be jerks, but they’ll have to find some fault, even if it’s trivial. That’s why I say you should convince yourself. Sounds like you’re already your own worst critic, and that’s half the battle, provided that you’re being honest with yourself. And not too hard on yourself, either. In a few years, your playing will be much better, so, for now, don’t expect to play as well as others who’ve got a few years on you.
I’ve found that I’ve played the best for others when I’m able to fully ignore everyone (except the singer or dancer when accompanying). Feeling annoyed or pissed off will get you out of a nervous state and keep you focused on your playing, although it’s obviously not something to aim for. The point is that you have be confident of what you’re doing. Convince yourself.
If you post an audio or video of your playing, I think you’ll get honest reactions and more of the good advice you've already seen here.
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aw man. Don't be too hard on yourself. Every single player on here has been through that stage of learning and plenty are still there. 
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