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Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: My Flamenco progression Log (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
It's pretty easy bro. Don't skip. Learn it. Learn a few. It's something you can play easily in company. So people can dance and have fun.
Also la pinza? Not a huge thing? You're the one who's asking for help!! Then people try and help and you say "hey it's not a huge thing don't worry about it"
Consider me unworried. If you want help then post an example. If you no longer want help. Then don't.
Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: My Flamenco progression Log (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
Ok so cool.
Every example he gives his left hand is muting the strings. For the purpose of showing the right hand tech.
So, in application that thumb down and golpe (tap) with anular may not necessarily be muted. So if you are sounding the strings with the thumb that's ok. If you have a chord fretted then that's what you will hear with the thumb down right.
So what seems to be your trouble with it? You are hearing the thumb hit the strings?? If so that's ok! It's meant to be hitting the strings.
If that's not the problem. Then please reiterate your issue.
thanks man , thats it ! Feel so stupid that didnt realise that at first , well i was guessing that further, tried to mute for myself than i hear allways something , just realize now that the only reason for that its that my mute with the golpe sucks , so i tought that his left hand was just near the neck for something that not to mute.
Will try againt muting the strings, it seems i have also to pratice that. Feel so stupid.
from your experience what do you recommend , try to pratice just one palo and get decent on that palo and then move on to another or just trying each one ?
Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: My Flamenco progression Log (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
it's hard to say because I don't know what you have or haven't been learning.
Solea, bulerías, siguiriyas and alegrías. Get decent at these I'd say.
I tried learning a little from as many Palos as I could when I started. But maybe that wasn't the best angle.
I recall meeting an old Spanish guy who asked me what I was learning. "Are you learning Solea?" To me i thought that was curious because I was learning flamenco guitar. All of it! Or so I thought. And the notion that people might just be learning certain Palos in isolation was confusing for me.
Anyway I'm sure other can give you decent reasoning of why you need to get good at those main palos.
it's hard to say because I don't know what you have or haven't been learning.
Solea, bulerías, siguiriyas and alegrías. Get decent at these I'd say.
I tried learning a little from as many Palos as I could when I started. But maybe that wasn't the best angle.
I recall meeting an old Spanish guy who asked me what I was learning. "Are you learning Solea?" To me i thought that was curious because I was learning flamenco guitar. All of it! Or so I thought. And the notion that people might just be learning certain Palos in isolation was confusing for me.
Anyway I'm sure other can give you decent reasoning of why you need to get good at those main palos.
It is good to learn all the palos, but Solea in general is the “mother form” for a reason. Through it, all the rest can be derived. Solea por Medio prepares for buleria, siguiriya, fandango and even Tango material. Once solea por buleria, or the middle ground, is worked on, Alegria easily follows from it. I typically start with Solea, and soon Buleria more or less together. After the student gets the hang of those, I demonstrate how they bridge together, and are in essence, the same form expressed at different tempos. The toque Levantes can be learned later (Granaina, Taranta, Minera, all are based on the same form in different keys).
RE: My Flamenco progression Log (in reply to Ricardo)
this thing its getting my nerves
i had to switch my mindset on arpeggios , i normally do them with other sequence , i praticed a lot and im doing with some other sequences, i improved im not talkin on pratice those melodic arpegios lke vicente amigo songs , im talking those arpegios from the palos... the traditional ones.
When i do them it sounds like melodic , and you can ear each string separatly , not that flamenco sound "tr tr tr" almost a tremolo... Search a lot for this to identify the issue or why i cant get that sound ,lot of people explained to do this or to that , not the detail that gives all the diference. Is this a matter or speed? i try faster and its more close to that ... is it speed and rythm?
im getting frustrated with this , it seems so simple, in theory im doing right..or its a "pro" sound?
example of someone doing the arpeggios with the sound that i want to achieve well i guess its called sextuplets...
Posts: 14830
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: My Flamenco progression Log (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
example of someone doing the arpeggios with the sound that i want to achieve well i guess its called sextuplets...
The issue he makes at 1:30 is this “hanging out” on the string. He is advocating the SEQUENTIAL PLANT, exclusively. This is an important skill to develop as there will be certain cases that it is required to have the notes ringing etc., as he states. P-a-m-i should be developed FIRST before this pattern (p-i-m-a-m-i), and I think there was a Tomatito falseta discussed recently that used this.
But the TRUTH is that for the basic pattern P-i-m-a, which SHOULD be the first one you develop, 99% of flamenco players use the FULL PLANT, exactly what he says NOT to do. In particular, you develop a lot of speed intuitively by doing the pattern P as an eighth note, then ima as a triplet unit, first as 16th note triplets in the space of that last 8th note, and later you learn to wait even longer and cram those three notes super fast like a grace note, into the next thumb note, at any speed division you want.
AFTER the coordination of the super fast grace note ima full plant arp is mastered in combo with thumb bass lines (think imaP…..imaP…..), THEN you can start to apply it to the p-i-m-a-m-i pattern. What happens is the full plant acts as a springboard Pima, where the a finger is the middle of the beat accent, then you turn it around with the m finger, followed by i, SEQUENTIAL arp (as I said you need to first have drilled your pami pattern to death, fast controlled etc.). So you end up with Pima-m-i, repeat. Now if you can’t coordinate the timing as perfect triplets, such that you have a hiccup between the easy fast full planted part (Pima-m), then what you can do is dril that coordination very fast by focusing on the M finger note as a stop hard accent. Pima-m..Pima-m…. Like 1e&ah2…3e&a4, etc. That note would be say the B string note and you could move a melody around on that string to make it interesting.
Anyway you should be able to develop that at top speed. Once you have that, it it is pretty easy to “sneak” the i finger in between repetitions. So that is all a big involved “short cut” to getting the speed. Once you have this thing at the tempo you want, you can then go back to developing coordination with tricky patterns that utilize the SEQUENTIAL plant as needed, at manageable tempos. Otherwise, most students hit a brick wall of tempo drilling the pimami slow sequential thing, and never move past that.
RE: My Flamenco progression Log (in reply to Ricardo)
making some progression , important to be cool to avoid frustration , when try something new allways sounds like **** , after some days it will sound way better and thats very rewarding..
Did you sell your first "better" cheaper guitar? or did you keep it? I want to upgrade as you now , but have an issue , sell it or not?
Posts: 14830
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: My Flamenco progression Log (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
Did you sell your first "better" cheaper guitar? or did you keep it? I want to upgrade as you now , but have an issue , sell it or not?
I traded my dad’s old beat up Ramirez classical for a beautiful Conde A26 Factory orange Blanca built by some mysterious individual who shall for ever remain unnamed, and recorded my solo flamenco guitar album Madera Sonora with it. I have a weird voodoo surrounding my guitars…I have never been able to successfully sell and off load an instrument other than that traded Ramirez. I have two literal boomerang guitars. The first, was infact my first guitar…a Japanese Nagoya classical which I loved more than the actual Ramirez, but in college my professor insist I use the Ramirez. So I had to reluctantly sell the Nagoya. Bizarrely the guy that bought it showed up at a concert I gave in his town (coincidence he lived there vs where we met which is same State but very far away) I had no contact with him over the years but he brought the guitar and GIFTED it back to me! It sounded great as I remembered. So I sold it but still have it. And the Conde I recorded with, years ago I needed money and it was the guitar in the best condition to sell (I have an A26 with pick up installed that is probably considered “devalued” though it is my Rocinante workhorse and most valuable to ME, but not for resale purpose). The guy that bought the Conde moved away and wanted me to hold on to it indefinitely…so another boomerang.
There are too many meme jokes about guitar collections, but it is not really funny. Keep it and start getting your factory conde collection going.
RE: My Flamenco progression Log (in reply to Ricardo)
thanks nice story as usual .
normally we just know we missed something when it happens , really dont know if im sentimental stuck with her or not... well shes a great candidate for a 2nd guitar , but for me too good to **** her up outside the house lol
I guess ill put her to sell and try to not loose a lot , and then decide if i sell it or not.
RE: My Flamenco progression Log (in reply to Ricardo)
Rasgeo is improving everyday , now i can control him nicer , today the Golpe came naturaly its funny and scary how things show up , feeling like a super power , when we dont have much confidence that we can improve or achieve something
What a ride.., this is the part that i enjoy more , the process.
Posts: 14830
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: My Flamenco progression Log (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
similar to the start
That phrase is repeated in dance classes, and hence Sabicas insisting you need those 20 years with dancers to get comfortable with rhythm guitar. I often point out to people concerned with music theory, that the “basis” of phrygian song forms is NOT the Andalusian Cadence (Am-G-F-E) but rather a more specific thing such as the phrase you struggle with (Fmj7, C7, Dm/F, E), which produces, arguably, the strongest identity of Soleá, of any single musical phrase we might play. This phrase might also occur in Buleria, and shows a “bridge” between the forms that is not noticeable at first, as the forms feel distinct due to the enormous tempo differences. I linked a video to a dance class with McGuire that shows this:
RE: My Flamenco progression Log (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
When I was 16 or something, and studying Bach, sometimes I got so frustrated that I would grab my super cheap guitar by the neck with my left hand, turn it around, hit it on the desk on the left of me, and get it back on my knees and keep playing like nothing has happened. Yes, patience..
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