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Hey everyone, I'm facing difficulties around transposing between different keys. Currently I've got a lot of material for my por medio bulerias, but I don't have the idea on how to transpose it to different keys. I see people play effortlessly in extremely uncommon keys like d minor or even tarantas for bulerias and I wonder how do they do that ?
Sometime I see some guy play a beautiful bulerias and bam, it's in a different key. What's the point of learning a single falseta in a key when I don't know how to work my way around the other stuff in the key, so I don't learn it altogether . And it's not even about learning falsetas , I want to have my own freedom to play in whichever key I wanna play in instead of just one
Is there theory required ? If so, just let me know the area I need to study and I'll do my best to study it
If not, what exactly do I need to know transpose my material from one key to another ? Thanks, hoping you guys will provide a solution as always
RE: Need help with keys and transposing (in reply to metalhead)
Hello. Can you understand what is the relation of the falseta you are learning and the chord behind the melody? You can relate the notes to the chord so when transposing you can just use it to make your life easier. For example if you have an A chord and your melody starts on c# that is the 3rd of your chord, so if you want to play this melody on an f# chord you have to start your melody on a#.
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Need help with keys and transposing (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
Is there theory required ? If so, just let me know the area I need to study and I'll do my best to study it
Two things. First, accompanying the cante, or the formal structures of the palos, by copying the material (personally chosen to your liking) teaches you the general situation between keys on the guitar neck (chords and scales that make up the falsetas for a given form). Considering that most traditional forms are based on Por medio or por Arriba (A phrygian or E phrygian), you can simple start with material that by necessity transports UP OR DOWN a set of strings physically. Traditional Solea, Siguiriyas, bulerias, Tientos tangos, etc, have these requirements. Only a little bit of fingering alteration might be required for those types of transpositions. UP or DOWN is literally why they call it “Arriba” or “por Medio”, either physically up in E or in the middle A, based on the chords and bass line melodies. You can take this further with por abajo, which again drops physically to D Phrygian, down a set of strings from Por medio.
Now ALL the other tonalities come from Cantes Levantes, which are variants of the basic Fandango form. The cante melodies are much richer in accidentals and when you start to hear them correctly you notice where all the rich harmonic complexity in flamenco guitar forms comes from. Fandango forces guitarists to come to terms with the relationship between the MAJOR key, and the Phrygian mode, and to some degree, the relative minor mode also. The accidentals are equivalent of notes that are not the normal NATURAL notes in the key….just like the blues, it alters the basic chords and scales that fit them. You can start with Granaina (B phrygian) that moves to G major, and often elements of E minor are heard. Famous rumbas such as Entre dos Aguas, Rio Ancho, etc., are based on this Song form, with Paco often doing DIRECT QUOTES from the levante cante formal structure. He is basically THINKING that way (not via any music theory relationships).
From there, to modulate to other tonalities, such as Taranta or Minera, etc, is getting into the subset of cante levante called “Cante mineros”, because they are associated with the miners from the eastern regions of Andalucia. Again, if you treat these forms with rhythm of tango, rumba, bulerias, Solea, whatever you want, the FORMAL structures are still rooted in the basic Fandango/Levante style songs. Switching between these forms in a single musical piece, is not complicated to the flamenco artists that have this background in the cante accompaniment and traditional base of falsetas etc.
Second thing. They don’t think about the musical relationships in the way a jazz or academic musician would. Now they don’t have a complete chromatic key map lay out of the neck (MOST guitarists don’t’ either, take your pick of any genre), but can still modulate BETWEEN, the familiar song form territories. How? Not mentally but PHYSICALLY, they transpose by using the barre chords, or, by using the index finger like a cejilla. A simple trick is to take a phrase in whatever key you are based in. Then repeat it exactly but THREE FRETS higher. This is essentially a MINOR THIRD relationship, or “modulation”, but it sometimes works nice for phrygian type melodies due to overlapping notes (think of how in the blues you can do different pentatonics that still work). As an example, take a falseta in position 2 Taranta, and move it up to positon 5. You might notice the new sound is “por medio” but you are making the notes sound up at 5th fret area. That shows the relation between Taranta and Por medio…for example.
None of that takes much mental work, however, you really really really need to first explore the traditional forms via the maestros falsetas and accompaniments for singers. One by one, will get you there.
RE: Need help with keys and transposing (in reply to Ricardo)
thanks for always being really helpful, ricardo
Coincidentally I started watching and studying cante a few weeks ago. I've a few questions, can u answer them? First, the dancer and guitarist can maintain a steady rhythm through beats and thus stay in compas, however I never understood how the singer remained in compas. Unlike dancing, singing is not done in beats, so how do they remain in time with the guitar player? You might say palmas, but how would the singer sing with the palmas? Does that mean specific letras start and end on specific beats?
Second, is there commonalities b/w cantes in a form? Because if there were atleast not a single common ground b/w all cantes of buleria, let's say, how would the guitarist get help accompanying. For eg, I've often seen bulerias start with a "aayeeee" kind of phrase. So do I need to look out fpr such common grounds?
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Need help with keys and transposing (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
thanks for always being really helpful, ricardo
Coincidentally I started watching and studying cante a few weeks ago. I've a few questions, can u answer them? First, the dancer and guitarist can maintain a steady rhythm through beats and thus stay in compas, however I never understood how the singer remained in compas. Unlike dancing, singing is not done in beats, so how do they remain in time with the guitar player? You might say palmas, but how would the singer sing with the palmas? Does that mean specific letras start and end on specific beats?
Second, is there commonalities b/w cantes in a form? Because if there were atleast not a single common ground b/w all cantes of buleria, let's say, how would the guitarist get help accompanying. For eg, I've often seen bulerias start with a "aayeeee" kind of phrase. So do I need to look out fpr such common grounds?
Wow those are astute questions for a new comer. To the first question. There are two main methods that the cante fits the compas. The simple concept is a line of verse (8 syllables of text) and its melody would in theory cover a single compas. Normally starting AFTER the first beat of the cycle (lets say solea type compas, after count 1), ending BEFORE the remate (where the chord changes on count 10) so the guitarist can decide by the target note of the melody, the correct chord (tono) to respond with. So almost a question and answer, is the main idea in general. This certainly applies to baile that involves cante as well…I call this boxed in (cuadrao means square and when things work out neatly they are called cuadrao). Great. So learning that way FIRST, where you could in theory create a karaoke backing of guitar and compas that a singer could in theory sing the cantes to in the car. But then there is the more traditional way to sing.
So when a singer sings in the old way, they are not bound to that math of fitting a letra perfectly square in a compas box before count 10 arrives. If you watch a song form you become familiar with in Rito y Geografia, you will notice many times (most) there will be letras that don’t fit “in the box” and the singer is almost freely floating the lyrics and melody as they please. The guitar keeps a box of sorts together underneath that and responds with chord changes EITHER on count 3 or 10, depending on how the familiar melody was delivered. “Play it as it lies” in golf is a concept of this, and yes it is MUCH harder to do than the boxed baile versions. We have cante minus guitar examples in the extensive cante accompaniment thread you can start studying. I have done several examples to follow, and others have conctributed much to it. Henry was one foro member who you can watch progress, making errors at first and gradually getting it together over the years. This is arguably THE most important thread topic on foro: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=124692&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
As to the second question, yes you need to familiarize your self with letra structures. There once was a great tool for learning the various structures at Encuentro videos, by Merenge de Cordoba. Sadly they never digitized it as far as I know, it was only an old VHS or DVD book and video combo that some people probably still have. I am sure that you can find equivalent type sources on YouTube for free though. To learn on your own requires some active listening. The “ayayay”, is typical way a singer will warm up the voice and is designed to be somewhat improvised, so not an important thing to “follow” closely, more you are just keeping rhythm. However, there end up being standardized ways that is done as well. But the main thing is the letras, typically 3 or 4 line versus. Hopefully you will get the idea from the thread above. “Common grounds” is very important….the melodies, not the words, guide the guitarist, however you need to know which line of the verse you are on in the moment. The melodies are embellished upon standards, not improvised. But since they can come at you at rhymically random times, it becomes a tricky art to accompany and not lose your place. Rito y Geografia offer the opportunity to visually observe how the singers are delt with in real time…highly recommend as a cross reference that adds more than audio recordings only.
From the thread here are a couple examples of how I deal with the rhythm of the singing. The first solea is super tricky interms of how the timing of the lines of verse come at me. The second example (two buleria videos) shows the freedom I have as an accompanist to deal with the same delivery of the melody in different ways (second I break the compas cycles in half, for example.).
RE: Need help with keys and transposing (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
If you watch a song form you become familiar with in Rito y Geografia, you will notice many times (most) there will be letras that don’t fit “in the box” and the singer is almost freely floating the lyrics and melody as they please. The guitar keeps a box of sorts together underneath that and responds with chord changes EITHER on count 3 or 10, depending on how the familiar melody was delivered. “
Any link to that rito y geografia cante as an example?
As I understood V and I are played only on beat 3 and 10 respectively. On 3 tension and on 10 resolution. Generally, when do chord changes occur except for beat 3 and 10? What type of chords?
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Need help with keys and transposing (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
If you watch a song form you become familiar with in Rito y Geografia, you will notice many times (most) there will be letras that don’t fit “in the box” and the singer is almost freely floating the lyrics and melody as they please. The guitar keeps a box of sorts together underneath that and responds with chord changes EITHER on count 3 or 10, depending on how the familiar melody was delivered. “
Any link to that rito y geografia cante as an example?
As I understood V and I are played only on beat 3 and 10 respectively. On 3 tension and on 10 resolution. Generally, when do chord changes occur except for beat 3 and 10? What type of chords?
Take your pick of the performances. I don’t recall any perfect cuadrao performances of solea or buleria por solea for example. Alegrias there were a couple (Camaron was pretty squared), but as a start here is a detailed example of Mairena (it would be good to read the exchanges between myself and Norman that follow the example, as I realized this is a fringe topic but important): http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=167134&appid=&p=&mpage=3&key=mairena%2Ccompas&tmode=&smode=&s=#167519
Also the Carol Whitney transcription that has been loaded and discussed (Juan Talega, Eduardo de Malena) is from live audio, but examplary. The only player I have noticed getting away with chord change on anything other than accent 3, 10, as you say, or 6 and 12 (where it can happen deliberately in anticipation, but 3 or 10 can change tension and release respectively if the line of verse is crossed rhythmically), was by David Serva, who did the resolution cambio on 7-8 I believe for Agujetas at one point (again search foro for a discussion). But he is American of course. .
You can watch and listen but it is better to actively engage…hence the cante accompaniment thread gives you those options. MONEO examples of solea or solea por buleria are particuarly tricky, and there is the one by Vicente Soto, etc. Check those out.
RE: Need help with keys and transposing (in reply to Ricardo)
wow, this is so incredibly valuable, I've been re-reading this again and again for a few hours and there's a ton of things that start to make sense. Mainly, about the starting the phrase right before 3, and closing it around 10. Thanks a ton for this valuable info, I'll be using this reference for studying
there's a few things although that inevitably came to my mind. Will try to keep it short:
1) Do all lines in a letra have 8 syllables? consider this (a letra I've been studying currently):
Loco por saber Loco por saber Si el clavel te hace bonita O tu bonito al clavel Válgame Dios de los cielos Tu bonito al clavel
the 'loco por saber' line starts just before 3 and ends around 10, the next verse doesn't start before the next 3; however the above verse has only 5 syllables, instead of 8? Am i doing something wrong here?
2)Can you elaborate what you mean by 'letra structure', do u mean how the melody goes with the letra and what chords need to go with the melody?
3) in the 2nd video at around 0:25 and other places too, you're often changing to a G voicing at beat 6 and then going to a F at beat 10. Now as u had mentioned chord changes occur around beat 3 or 10, I'm guessing here instead of beat 6, we would still say the chord changes happen at beat 10 since that's the final chord you're resolving to?
4)Do you know a playlist or something of the like where I can find only cante, there's lots of cante out there on Yt but they have a guitar in the bg so not the best for practicing accompaniment, something like what u posted. You seem to be practicing only against cante tracks
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Need help with keys and transposing (in reply to metalhead)
Again good observations.
1. Technically “no”, however, this literal discrepancy is due to the combining of syllables, or dropping them due to the andaluz accent. So conceptually, a “proper Spanish” version of any letra will be more or less 8-syllables. The letra you used is 3 lines, and probably derives from a version where you would find proper 8 syllables for each line, but the way the singer happened to deliver it was as you have recorded. The line “Valgame dios de los cielos”, is not part of the letra and could be added to ANY letra, such that the rhyme works at the end. More often you find verses that repeat the last two lines together:
Si el clavel te hace bonita O tu bonito al clavel Si el clavel te hace bonita (instead of Valgame dios…) O tu bonito al clavel
.You also find other additive phrases like “compañera de mi Alma”, or “madre de mi Alma”, that substitute the penultimate line of verse. In some cases (buleria por solea, or specifically buleria larga), these additive phrases are added IN ADDITION TO the penultimate line of verse, and hence shift the relative major chord change over 6 counts. There are various methods of dealing with that when it happens. On Norman Kliman’s websight he calls these added phrases “Zero verse”, and has collection of examples (canteytoque.es). So your letra structure is AABCXC.
2. Yes, the melody as it connects to the traditional-set-in stone melody, and the accompanying chords that punctuate the lines of verse. Believe it or not, these fixed melodies need not be totally memorized, rather, due to the formal poetic structure and general melody types (they likely derive from a single source, or sources, that I think of as the “grandmother melody”), a guitarist that knows just a few can learn to accompany new melodies over time using a “blue-print” structure as a basis, understanding the singer is free to throw curve balls at will in the moment. Fun stuff.
3. It is actually a C dominant 7th barre chord in first position, that is used to pull stronger from the previous chord (Dm, Bb, E7, or tonic A, depending on the melody of the first/second line) as a “set up” for the relative major chord move. In slower tempo forms like Solea, this set up C7 chord is prepared as early as count 3 of the penultimate line of verse. In dance structures this might have a lot of rhythmic drama involved, leading into the dramatic F major chord resolution. One can think of this progression as “relative major” interms of key, as if a brief modulation is occurring on the penultimate line of verse. Because bulerias is so fast, we normally can’t anticipate the change so quickly and wait till count 6 or 7 to set it up. There are examples of it being missed completely, and tocaores have to keep the ball in play by at least concluding the final line of verse with the singer. Most of the “game” of accompaniment of these forms is centered on this final couplet (two lines of verse) situation. In the third video I reverse the chords doing F major-C7/G, as is a standard Jerez practice (Morao Sr.) as is the half compas situation. Here is the voicing of the barred C7:
(1) 1 3 2 1 3
4. These are found in the linked thread provided earlier “cante accompaniment”. There is a page listing on the front and if you jump to around page 20 or so, there is more info that continues.
RE: Need help with keys and transposing (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
2)Can you elaborate what you mean by 'letra structure', do u mean how the melody goes with the letra and what chords need to go with the melody?
4)Do you know a playlist or something of the like where I can find only cante, there's lots of cante out there on Yt but they have a guitar in the bg so not the best for practicing accompaniment, something like what u posted. You seem to be practicing only against cante tracks
2. Norman's site may help canteytoque.es/soleares.htm This video may help
4. If you have a particular recording you like and are studying you can effectively remove the guitar with the moises.ai app. See this thread for more. www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=343118&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=moises&tmode=&smode=&s=#343118 That said, choosing a track already on the accompaniment thread on the foro means you can benefit from hearing other attempts and the surrounding discussion.
The 'blue print' that Ricardo refers to, doesn't exist as such. It is more inferred from experiencing variations/exceptions that point to rules/blueprint. For each of the many styles of solea, some interpretations are considered more pure or correct than others (see Norman's site) But there is not one interpretation that can be pointed to as being the blue print version.This could be a good place to start por Solea Joaquín el de la Paula : Carol Whitney's transcription of a recording by Juan Talega and Eduardo de Malena. If you scroll down the moises.ai thread Simon posted first letra with no guitar. There's also a link to more discussion of the Talega recording.. Or post a link to something you have been studying already, we could look at it together.
This is best learnt by doing, rather than reading and talking about it. Best thing is choose a cante, get out your guitar, record a take and upload it on the accompaniment thread for feedback. Doesn't need to be high level technical playing.
Thanks for posting. I'm away in Andalusia without a guitar right now but when I'm back I will have a go at the Moneo solea, thanks for the inspiration.
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