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Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados
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Ricardo
Posts: 14841
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to metalhead)
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The guitarist that plays for El Gordito de Triana in Rito y Geografia episode called Fandangos naturales, does the rasgueado like Ben, so it is not totally unique as a concept (that dude has to use 5-stroke patterns in order to get the golpes in). There is a fundamental problem with the reverse sequence, which is how to punctuate with golpes opposite the index stroke. Consider a simple exercise, and one I have had to do for dance, ami ami ami, like a gallop but you do golpes with each i stroke. That would be impossible with Ben’s sequence. In holy wars he does a gallop as i down m down i up. Compare that to m down i down i up. The other thing to consider is the subtle dynamics. Typically the idea of rasgueado is to crescendo a bit into the accented beat. This is achieve naturally by the weaker fingers starting (pinky ring middle getting louder each stroke) and again, punctuated by the index finger’s final up down stroke. When I attempt ben’s version, the dynamics taper down after the strong start of the index. These details can be circumvented by using the thumb in combination, such that final golpes after pinky strokes occur with the thumb and golpe, and controlling dynamics more evenly etc. But to be totally honest, I would discourage students from doing this UNLESS they had already worked on it to such a high degree they can achieve whatever is needed musically.
The last thing is that there is a super important sequence that every flamenco players needs to master IMO, which is i up, ami down repeat…perfectly evenly as 32nd notes (8 per beat), or as galloping triplets accenting the i stroke down. I can’t imagine a way to achieve the resultant sound and speed required with the reverse sequence.
First singer in this episode:
https://youtu.be/TdjKXnL85Ko?si=YGeS3MTq2LsMrUpO
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 11 2023 14:25:59
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metalhead
Posts: 126
Joined: Apr. 15 2023
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RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to Ricardo)
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the first 2 that u discuss, that is the golpe and the accent part, I had the same thoughts that there would be some problem. Not sure why the 3rd one would be a problem. One would simply do i up , and then i m a down, and repeat.
Barring these factors you pointed out, and considering economy and speed , do you think his are better? Do you think his speed can be matched by somebody who does them the traditional way?
I also don't know why Ben why would prefer doing this way. He did say in an interview that initially when he didn't have a teacher and practiced from recordings, he got the idea of rasgueados was doing i m a c from only listening to the recordings. But after that, I'm not sure why he didn't switch back to the traditional way. Like he had obviously practiced deeply everything, why didn't he practice the traditonal rasgueados, did you guys ever discuss about this?
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Date Nov. 11 2023 18:09:38
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Ricardo
Posts: 14841
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Thoughts on Ben Woods rasgueados (in reply to metalhead)
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quote:
the first 2 that u discuss, that is the golpe and the accent part, I had the same thoughts that there would be some problem. Not sure why the 3rd one would be a problem. One would simply do i up , and then i m a down, and repeat.
The third one that is done extremely fast (twice the speed of Holy wars in some cases), there is a problem with the i up followed by i down stroke. The efficiency of the standard way comes from the fact the index is free to do a big sweep then upon retraction the a finger is already coming up, but i up does not need to do a full sweep. In order to do what you suggest, the i up will need to prepare the NEXT index down stroke as a full sweep and there simply is not enough TIME to go as fast as the other way. It can work fine of course for medium speed rolls of 16ths (like holy wars). Otherwise, the resultant preparation of i up i down will limit the sweep of the finger to only the treble strings and not have a good full sound. It would sound as “tinki-DUGAH, tinki-DUGAh” etc. rather than the traditional “tink-AHDUGAH, tink-ADUGAH”, etc.
quote:
Barring these factors you pointed out, and considering economy and speed , do you think his are better? Do you think his speed can be matched by somebody who does them the traditional way?
Not sure what makes you concerned about superiority, however, no Ben does not come close to what most maestros have achieved with it as an expression. Because he is self taught, as others mentioned that do it BACKWARDS (lets be honest about what is going on), it must be considered a COMPROMISE, that despite the short comings, he and others have done quite well with it that there should be no complaints or serious criticism. But make no mistake it is an adaptation due to not having a mentor show the correct way…or perhaps simple access to video performance (which is how I first corrected my own misconceptions about the technique. I had developed a down and up stroke version with all fingers on my own with no teacher…like c-a-m-i all down, then a up m up i up, a down m down, i down….as triplets LOL).
quote:
I also don't know why Ben why would prefer doing this way. He did say in an interview that initially when he didn't have a teacher and practiced from recordings, he got the idea of rasgueados was doing i m a c from only listening to the recordings. But after that, I'm not sure why he didn't switch back to the traditional way. Like he had obviously practiced deeply everything, why didn't he practice the traditonal rasgueados, did you guys ever discuss about this?
The answer to this is simple. He drilled the “wrong way” until he was satisfied with the sound. Practice does not make “perfect”. PRACTICE MAKES PERMANENT!!! It is much harder to UNLEARN old habits than to entrain new ones from scratch. I have a heck of a time getting seasoned classical players to rest the thumb opposite arpegios and tremolos vs an absolute beginner learning for the first time with no entrained biases.
I know Ben is your hero, and I greatly respect all his work and love him like a brother. But I can’t in good conscience promote for a student to learn the “wrong” rasgueado technique just because he and a few others found success with it.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 12 2023 16:17:04
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