Practicing fast and slow

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Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

Practicing fast and slow

Hello,

Always hear how when you are practicing a falseta etc that you should be able to play it really slow. And have heard over my years of study, various anecdotes of maestros telling students to slow down! No really slow down! No slower than that etc

I've also heard (memorably from Ricardo on here and others) that you should practice fast! Like at the limit, where or starts to fall apart.

Are these both true.
And when should you be using one of the other?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2023 16:38:17

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Stu)

I've heard both and I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I have practised techniques excruciatingly slowly, and to where it all starts falling apart and I think they both have benefits for one's motor skills. Would like to hear from our resident experts though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2023 20:49:51

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Stu)

You should practice medium speed too.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2023 2:48:23

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Stu)

quote:

Are these both true.

Yes

quote:

And when should you be using one of the other? .

Big question, there can be many different learning goals so the answer is- it depends.

Learning a falseta slow can help one to understand it, memorise it, and enhance deliberate practice e.g. awareness of rhythm accuracy. But then there may be a technical aspect to it where practicing at speed is important.

For example motor skills like picado, arpeggio etc.. and shifting between them in a falseta. Slow can facilitate deliberate practice and enhance sensory awareness. Fast because it is possible to learn a motor pattern that works when you play slow, but which will never work at a fast speed.

When it comes to theories of motor learning and motor control we know much less than one might imagine. This is a big topic. And when it comes to playing guitar or any musical instrument there’s even less evidence. The thesis linked below has an easy to read literature review.   

Here are some principles that may help you answer your question of when:

Contextual Interference:
The interference in performance and learning that arises from practicing one task in the context of other tasks  e.g. different skills, or variations of similar skills. E.g. speed: slow fast medium quiet/loud, changes in rhythm etc.. 

Deliberate practice.
Effortful and conscious with a clear, measurable goal. Throughout one's performance is assessed against this goal and feedback implemented.

Focus of attention/External cue:  
Focus on the effects of movements may lead to better results in skill execution than a focus on the movements themselves E.g. Focus on metronome accuracy, or quality of the sound produced. (See Yngwie Malmsteen who reports he did this, so when asked technically how he played, he didn't know exactly).  

As well as slow and fast there's also not playing at all i.e. mental imagery/modelling. Alternating physical practice with mental imagery e.g. the observation of another e.g. a maestro.

Pell, David. "Insulating Musical Motor Skills Against Music Performance Anxiety." PhD diss.
https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/handle/1807/103797

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2023 9:46:31

devilhand

Posts: 1606
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Stu)

quote:

And have heard over my years of study, various anecdotes of maestros telling students to slow down!

Obviously the reason is that falseta is technique-wise challenging for students. Plus they haven't internalized the compas yet. So a student will spend more time at a slower speed. I believe new fingering patterns and pulgar runs etc. make it even necessary for maestros as well.

Generally you can't play some falseta slow because rhythmic nuances would be lost at a slower speed.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2023 10:32:25

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to orsonw)

Thanks for the replies. Thanks Orson for that detailed reply.

I'm very happy really with the idea of slow practice and obviously do this religiously when learning new material.

I guess what I'm really getting at here is the fast end of things. And specifically really picado and alzapua. Feels like I can practice them slow (and medium

) all day long and they are good... But im interested in that little zone at the limits of my speed where its sort of still good, but just starting to fall apart.

Should I be spending time there or dialing it back to where it's stable?
It reminds me of another of yours Ricardo. 'Practice makes permanent'
If I stay on that zone too long is that gonna make for a messy picado/alzapua.

Or is it a matter of dipping in and out of that zone?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2023 10:53:32

devilhand

Posts: 1606
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Stu)

quote:

But im interested in that little zone at the limits of my speed where its sort of still good, but just starting to fall apart.

I believe everyone has their own speed. For example my arpegio is meanwhile fast enough for flamenco music. I've got used to this certain tempo over time. Everytime I practice, I practice arpegio at this speed. I can play it slower, but I feel more comfortable when I speed up.

Practice makes permanent. But in a positive way I would say.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2023 11:12:38

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Stu)

quote:

I guess what I'm really getting at here is the fast end of things. And specifically really picado and alzapua. Feels like I can practice them slow (and medium ) all day long and they are good... But im interested in that little zone at the limits of my speed where its sort of still good, but just starting to fall apart.

IMO including fast practice is important. Speed bursts of short phrases/few notes are useful. Spending some time practicing deliberately at your limit zone will show you what needs to change. This can be worked on fast with few notes, and any insights can then also inform your slower practice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2023 11:49:27

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Stu)

quote:

Should I be spending time there or dialing it back to where it's stable?
It reminds me of another of yours Ricardo. 'Practice makes permanent'
If I stay on that zone too long is that gonna make for a messy picado/alzapua.

Honestly, you have to understand THE tempo whatever it might be, and what the music feels like there, that is all. When Paco played Chanela with the trio, they greatly exceed the tempo at which he can articulate picado in 8 note groupings on that intro opening run so he does a ligado version.

This is desired tempo:

Here too fast, yet it has to be done somehow anyway:

Paco is acutely aware of how the music feels different, or WILL, immediately as the tempo begins.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2023 11:55:09

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Honestly, you have to understand THE tempo whatever it might be, and what the music feels like there, that is all.

I like your evocation of what music 'feels like' at particular tempos.

Perhaps this also speaks to the importance of external cues, and also 'chunking' e.g. by rhythm. Some evidence in piano players that changing the perception of rhythm effects motor patterns when playing the same notes.

"Findings indicate that there was a marked change in motor performance when subjects were instructed to perceive the notation in a particular mode of metered pulse-beat grouping. It was concluded that how one perceives a music score—by single notes, articulated motivic patterns, or by the metered pulse-beat grouping—is reflected in the organization of motor patterns."

Halsband, Ulrike et al. “The Role of the Perception of Rhythmic Grouping in Musical Performance: Evidence from Motor-Skill Development in Piano Playing.” Music Perception: An Interdisciplinary Journal 11 (1994): 265-288.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271786985_The_Role_of_the_Perception_of_Rhythmic_Grouping_in_Musical_Performance_Evidence_from_Motor-Skill_Development_in_Piano_Playing

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2023 12:01:13

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Ricardo)

ahah nice clip!

interesting bit re chanela too thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2023 12:04:52

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to devilhand)

Sure about that? First time I played for a decent dancer I realized I wasn't as fast as I needed to be. Check out Juan at 2:00 and ask yourself if you could play an areggio at this tempo.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=juan+ramirez+flamenco&mid=60EC8986B43F4337718E60EC8986B43F4337718E&FORM=VIRE

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

For example my arpegio is meanwhile fast enough for flamenco music.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2023 18:51:27

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Mark2)

Awesome! Thanks for that video link. Just showed my 7 yr old daughter and she was blown away.

Haha. I think the answer regarding devilhands apreggios would be a no! But really? Who's playing arpeggios for dancers at that speed.
Alegrias escobilla ends up being thumb and index at that speed no? Or ras?

Kind of ties into this bit about speed and how music/tech/feel falls apart at certain speeds.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2023 20:58:09

devilhand

Posts: 1606
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

Check out Juan at 2:00 and ask yourself if you could play an areggio at this tempo.

What bpm is this and what arpegio pattern?

I can play clean pimami at 120-130 bpm.
5 stroke imami 3 times in a row at 60 bpm. It's 15 notes per second.
But it's impossible to play like this fast longer than a minute. You know playing only fast pimami or imami longer than a minute is also not music.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2023 20:58:18

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Stu)

It is just p and i except for Beats 1,4,7, and 10. It’s Pima for those. Still a challenge at this tempo, which is probably close to 180 bpm or more. Then add a glope on 3,6,9, and 12 and it’s groovy.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2023 22:40:13

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

It is just p and i except for Beats 1,4,7, and 10. It’s Pima for those. Still a challenge at this tempo, which is probably close to 180 bpm or more. Then add a glope on 3,6,9, and 12 and it’s groovy.

These are not hard. At 2:45:

For Juan Ramirez I would use rasgueado for those personally. He was the guy dancing on La Barrosa.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2023 12:14:04

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Ricardo)

I’m finding it somewhat difficult at this speed but it’s coming along.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2023 15:10:31

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Ricardo)

I would have used ras too which is probably why I never developed that arpeggio to that speed. Tino is using parts of this dance to show different ways of playing for it. Working on por medio and solea versions as well as syncopated hits that play off Juan’s accents.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2023 21:34:36

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Stu)

Really cool that your daughter was inspired by senior Ramirez. His footwork is incredible!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2023 23:37:08

devilhand

Posts: 1606
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

These are not hard. At 2:45:

Is it around 230 bpm?

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2023 22:33:16

devilhand

Posts: 1606
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

I’m finding it somewhat difficult at this speed but it’s coming along.

At 0:25 pami arpegio at 130-140 bpm. To me it's fast enough for flamenco music.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2023 22:38:59

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Practicing fast and slow (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

I’m finding it somewhat difficult at this speed but it’s coming along.

At 0:25 pami arpegio at 130-140 bpm. To me it's fast enough for flamenco music.

During the rolls it is about 148 then slows down in the remates. The paco is pretty steady at 240 as well.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 28 2023 18:10:31