Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: rasgeo that starts with index fi... (in reply to rafapak)
According to the book I have of Viejin, and what is explained as special terms used by Entri (teacher of caño Roto in Madrid), they call the two finger version “Caballo”, like a horse gallop, so I assume the same that adds the middle finger would be called the same, or “Caballo con tres dedos” or something like that. The thing is “Caballo” with two fingers can be converted into straight tresillos iai (as he calls it in the book), and the version of Caballo with 3 fingers can be converted to “mariposa con 4 notas”, with the beat emphasis on the up stroke instead of the a finger.
Not sure how helpful such terminology actually is.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: rasgeo that starts with index fi... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
According to the book I have of Viejin, and what is explained as special terms used by Entri (teacher of caño Roto in Madrid), they call the two finger version “Caballo”, like a horse gallop, so I assume the same that adds the middle finger would be called the same, or “Caballo con tres dedos” or something like that. The thing is “Caballo” with two fingers can be converted into straight tresillos iai (as he calls it in the book), and the version of Caballo with 3 fingers can be converted to “mariposa con 4 notas”, with the beat emphasis on the up stroke instead of the a finger.
Not sure how helpful such terminology actually is.
RE: rasgeo that starts with index fi... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
"Uncle Nanis" haha nice! whos Uncle Nani?
Arturo Cerreduela - El Nani, father of David Cerreduela. El Nani didn't record or perform professionally but he was an influence on Caño Roto guitarists- David Cerreduela, El Viejin etc...
RE: rasgeo that starts with index fi... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
According to the book I have of Viejin, and what is explained as special terms used by Entri (teacher of caño Roto in Madrid), they call the two finger version “Caballo”, like a horse gallop, so I assume the same that adds the middle finger would be called the same, or “Caballo con tres dedos” or something like that. The thing is “Caballo” with two fingers can be converted into straight tresillos iai (as he calls it in the book), and the version of Caballo with 3 fingers can be converted to “mariposa con 4 notas”, with the beat emphasis on the up stroke instead of the a finger.
Ricardo, do you remember how many volumes this book has ? is this one volume or more ?
RE: rasgeo that starts with index fi... (in reply to rafapak)
Funny I learned the ‘caballo’ backwards- a up- i up - a down
But I also learned it the way it’s written in that book up there.
Then I got this one: i up - x down - i down and somewhere in between an and m brush the strings in between almost randomly.
Used to flick the bass strings and trebles in a wide separation with some brushing in the middle. The emphasis in the triplet or however you fit it is on i and x being dominant. Does that have a name? Or shall we call it Esteban’s ham sandwich fingers rasgueado?
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: rasgeo that starts with index fi... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Funny I learned the ‘caballo’ backwards- a up- i up - a down
But I also learned it the way it’s written in that book up there.
Then I got this one: i up - x down - i down and somewhere in between an and m brush the strings in between almost randomly.
Used to flick the bass strings and trebles in a wide separation with some brushing in the middle. The emphasis in the triplet or however you fit it is on i and x being dominant. Does that have a name? Or shall we call it Esteban’s ham sandwich fingers rasgueado?
Yes it is called the “pre-tick-tock-late-night-cable-tv-infomercial-rasgueado”.
RE: rasgeo that starts with index fi... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Funny I learned the ‘caballo’ backwards- a up- i up - a down
But I also learned it the way it’s written in that book up there.
Then I got this one: i up - x down - i down and somewhere in between an and m brush the strings in between almost randomly.
Used to flick the bass strings and trebles in a wide separation with some brushing in the middle. The emphasis in the triplet or however you fit it is on i and x being dominant. Does that have a name? Or shall we call it Esteban’s ham sandwich fingers rasgueado?
Yes it is called the “pre-tick-tock-late-night-cable-tv-infomercial-rasgueado”.
Seriously? Because I got it from Serva, not Esteban
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: rasgeo that starts with index fi... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Funny I learned the ‘caballo’ backwards- a up- i up - a down
But I also learned it the way it’s written in that book up there.
Then I got this one: i up - x down - i down and somewhere in between an and m brush the strings in between almost randomly.
Used to flick the bass strings and trebles in a wide separation with some brushing in the middle. The emphasis in the triplet or however you fit it is on i and x being dominant. Does that have a name? Or shall we call it Esteban’s ham sandwich fingers rasgueado?
Yes it is called the “pre-tick-tock-late-night-cable-tv-infomercial-rasgueado”.
Seriously? Because I got it from Serva, not Esteban
He also invented D# phrygian as a new key that is used for various palos today, and called it “Mi bemol”, indicating he was smoking something quite potent.
RE: rasgeo that starts with index fi... (in reply to rafapak)
Abanico chico pai triplet is usually associated with Paco. No? At least he popularized it, I read somewhere.
Uncle Nani's 4 note ras is worth trying. Interesting to know qamii is called mariposa and amii mariposa de 4 notas. It goes to show that 5 note qamii is the predecessor of amii.
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: rasgeo that starts with index fi... (in reply to estebanana)
I learned the backwards one from Senior McGuire. It's a different sound and it's pretty cool.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Funny I learned the ‘caballo’ backwards- a up- i up - a down
But I also learned it the way it’s written in that book up there.
Then I got this one: i up - x down - i down and somewhere in between an and m brush the strings in between almost randomly.
Used to flick the bass strings and trebles in a wide separation with some brushing in the middle. The emphasis in the triplet or however you fit it is on i and x being dominant. Does that have a name? Or shall we call it Esteban’s ham sandwich fingers rasgueado?
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: rasgeo that starts with index fi... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
Abanico chico pai triplet is usually associated with Paco. No? At least he popularized it, I read somewhere.
Every time these myths get put in print, it is inevitable they spread. I read many myself and my whole career has been a discovery how they are all incorrect, one by one.
2:55:
Paco did innovate with the technique, as far as I know. Almoraima 1976 introduces the off beat triplet abanico that became standard for next gen players (tomatito, Nuñez, etc.). For me, that is one of the main dividing lines between so called “Traditional/Modern” flamenco guitar. Considering he was NOT doing that in 1975. Perhaps he learned it from someone, I don’t know for sure, but for sure it is because he recorded it, younger players copied it. I noticed it is part of the dancer’s lexicon (to start via a certain heel on the off beat triplet that continues), so I somewhat suspect that it came from that genre which Paco was no longer an active part of. The opposite could be true as well…dancers adopted this from the guitarists that had copied Almoraima. Someone with sharp memories of Madrid flamenco those years would know for sure.
It think it is well established that Juan Marote invented the “Abanico grande” due to some limitation he felt with other rasgueados. For me it stands out from the other standard techniques due to its mechanics, and therefore I tend to believe the story. The abanico “Chico” was always known to me as simply “abanico” the only one other than the “marote”. Tomatito applied Paco’s off beat triplet from Almoraima to the Marote as well. Paco soon after ramped up the subdivision with the same off beat abanico so that he ad a quadruple time version during the 80’s. I have only noticed Paco use Marote in Concierto de Aranjuez, the end of first movement. Vicente next applied the quadruplet of beat Marote, in his bulerias.
The Abanico you hear Ramon doing I feel, derives from the earlier standard 5tuplet where the i upstroke was replaced by P up. It is a similar mechanic with simple omission of fingers (first pinky, then later middle) and more separation and slower subdivisions as a result. It would be interesting to do a case study on Rasgueados through time, recording first appearances. The problem is the fidelity on old recordings is poor and made worse by noise reduction software such that the cante comes out fine, but guitar is pushed out.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread