Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Any advantages or disadvantages of mastering of 5 stroke rasgueado qamii? I'm thinking about mastering it. But I haven't seen Paco or other modern players doing it. So I'm still not convinced.
Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to devilhand)
No, don't bother. Or at least mastering it. Focus on the other fingers.
A far as I know it doesn't really get used nowadays. Dunno why. Maybe just a fashion thing.
Manual Valencia kept telling me off for index finger upstroke on the high e. On solea, alegrias cierre, Said it was very old fashioned! 😄 hard to un train that
Posts: 14832
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
No, don't bother. Or at least mastering it. Focus on the other fingers.
A far as I know it doesn't really get used nowadays. Dunno why. Maybe just a fashion thing.
Manual Valencia kept telling me off for index finger upstroke on the high e. On solea, alegrias cierre, Said it was very old fashioned! 😄 hard to un train that
Was going to ignore a ridiculous question from the typical troll, until you got involved. Uh, rather than sit here and defend an unfairly attacked age old traditional/fundamental/useful technique of flamenco guitar used by EVERY old maestro in history, I will simply say that the factual BEST rasgueado application award goes to PACO CEPERO, and any so called “flamenco” guitarist that is not at least leaning in the direction of trying to be that well versed in the techniques of strumming, is either LAZY, wrong, arrogant, or some combo of those. While he had/has many in his bag, the one in question was certainly part of the package. Nuñez and others of his generation utilize, perhaps, some of the more effective techniques for personal taste reasons, and I hate to say, were always missing out. Chiquelo being an exception who had a unique version, but a lot of the effectiveness stems from working with DANCE, where the sharp staccato attack =4 loud hits per beat was a necessary evil more often than not. Hearing the 5-stroke all over TAUROMAGIA (a continued favorite masterpiece of modern flamenco guitar) I was fortunate to find its value early on in my training.
The opening A chords use it (by contrast the E chord and D chord at the end of the piece use 4 stroke)
Having said all that, I don’t think BEGINNERS need to mess with it until 4 finger stroke combos have been mastered (another aversion I have to method books that introduce this in your first Alegria or whatever).
Here I am, by the way, applying Paco’s idea (from linked thread) to my own Bulería at 3:51…slow it down if you are confused.
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to Ricardo)
Thanks for that, Ricardo.
When I started out I was taught the five stroke version and, not knowing any better, practiced it assiduously. I didn’t even realize a four stroke version existed until one day I noticed my teacher, the exact same person who showed me the five stroke version, was always using four stroke. Then I went to Spain to study and was told do four stroke (I think the reason I was given was dance). It totally messed me up trying to change on the fly. The five stroke still sounds “right” to me. Still, I wish I would have been taught the four stroke way first.
Also, as an aside to Stu, what’s the matter with sounding a little old fashioned?
Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Having said all that, I don’t think BEGINNERS need to mess with it until 4 finger stroke combos have been mastered (another aversion I have to method books that introduce this in your first Alegria or whatever).
This is what I was getting at. He doesn't even have a flamenco guitar does he? Mastering 5 strike ras seems a strange goal.
Yeah I learned it from method books early on. So have some capabilities in that regard but never use it. Francisco Antonio (who was discussed here recently) who I had lessons with early on told me not to bother with it.
Rob. I was gonna expand on that actually...But then got called away. I mean that may be someone's goal right? to recreate that old sound or maybe they are more inspired by that typical old fashioned style in which case there's nothing wrong with that! My idea is that devil hand isn't really that into 'old school flamenco' (ooh er) style.
I, rightly or wrongly, am also more inspired by what's happening now. So I found it amusing and worth it or remark that Manuel Valencia winced a little bit and said 'muy viejo' every time I did that!
I think it's probably detrimental to be honest and I should probably go back and grind the old masters more.
Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to Stu)
Ricardo, I read my reply to devilhand and it comes across a little flippant. But that's not in regard to the technique but more a result of who im replying to.
Could you explain how Cepero had the best ras as a fact?!
I mean I'm not disputing it. I'm just curious to how that's a fact? How would you measure it to prove the fact?
Posts: 14832
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to RobF)
quote:
ORIGINAL: RobF
Thanks for that, Ricardo.
When I started out I was taught the five stroke version and, not knowing any better, practiced it assiduously. I didn’t even realize a four stroke version existed until one day I noticed my teacher, the exact same person who showed me the five stroke version, was always using four stroke. Then I went to Spain to study and was told do four stroke (I think the reason I was given was dance). It totally messed me up trying to change on the fly. The five stroke still sounds “right” to me. Still, I wish I would have been taught the four stroke way first.
Also, as an aside to Stu, what’s the matter with sounding a little old fashioned?
The issue about 4 vs 5 is simply tempo and subdivision requirements. Majority of cante in the old days was medium fast Solea, where the 5 stroke was necessary in the 120-130 bpm range to comfortably express the “123” accentuation. The 4 stroke (also used despite people thinking it was modern) was too slow, and the tresillo x2 (sextuplet) too fast, the 5 stroke being just right. There are many examples as well of 8 strokes executed as eami-ieam-i to cover the same spread as needed in siguiriyas, fandangos, solea, etc. So the functionality is simply about tempo. With dancers trending to separate cantes inicios (4 line verse) with cantes machos, or transicion (3-line verse, in a set) by a huge tempo divide, the concept of “solea por buleria” arrives where we do go from super slow tempo (tresillos most effective) to very fast (160 bpm and 4 strokes are most effective), we see the tempo range that really required that technique being reserved for just cante alone. These are huge generalizations, but along with the concept that 4 stroke is needed and preferred for baile, also we see the “boxing in” of the cante for professional that get hired to sing for dance, and the systematic elimination of important cante styles that don’t fit as neatly the choreographies.
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to Stu)
My opinion is that 4 stroke goes well with palmas contatiempo and so with baile. 5 stroke goes well with cante. If Melchor were here he would be laughing.
The opening A chords use it (by contrast the E chord and D chord at the end of the piece use 4 stroke)
Any other alegrias of his as well. Also, another very prominent use by him is in his Solera composition. The whole beginning is full with eamii quintuplet rasgeos, and they continue to show up further on
(In contrast, Caro plays it 'wrong' here as just four-stroke amii rasgeos which to me sound sparse compared to the original choice )
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
I almost forgot my "never mess with the pinky" rule.
Have you enough experience to start making flamenco 'rules' for yourself? I am sorry to say this, especially if I am wrong in which case I apologise, but your posts don't indicate that you do.
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to devilhand)
The 5 stroke is the Goldilocks stroke for certain palos a certain tempos, just like the four stroke is the Goldilocks in other tempos.
Personally I think the 5 is very beautiful in the right places, and that it’s worth mastering because I think it makes your other rasgueado more solid and versatile. It can have a stately old fashionedness sure, but it fits in modern toque too.
I think that index upstroke in a solea remate is not so much muy antiguo, but it’s a cloying cliche’ mechanismo if employed compas after compas (guilty)
If a guitarist in the level of Manuel Valencia scolded me I’d just shrug my shoulders and say I’m just a dumb guiri, sorry man.
Posts: 14832
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
Focus on the other fingers.
I almost forgot my "never mess with the pinky" rule. I decided to stick to amii. At 1:02:05 this 5 stroke ras sounds good though.
Unlike ALL the paco examples I shared (that you didn’t notice before and don’t even care about now), he is flicking off the thumb resulting in a darker sound, attacking the bass only. It is nice for separation but not the only or even main way it is done. This flicking off thumb every rasgueado has been a primary “fix” I have had to address in lessons for experienced players for years now.
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
This flicking off thumb every rasgueado has been a primary “fix” I have had to address in lessons for experienced players for years now.
In that regard it makes sense that I was shown the five stroke method first as it doesn’t incorporate a “flick”, so I didn’t have to unlearn anything. Also, as a beginner, playing anything very fast wasn’t in the cards so the five stroke was also appropriate for that reason. My problem was not even realizing that a four stroke variant was used until I had gone so far down the five stroke path that the four stroke version felt awkward to me. This thread has actually been pretty helpful in clearing up a few nagging questions I’ve had.
Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to devilhand)
My take is, learn to control your fingers so you're versatile enough to play whatever you want to. Of course most people prefer amii amii but eami eiam (ii) works perfectly well and saves energy for your right hand, while the resulting tone will be only slightly different. If you accompany a lot of dance, you will surely want to look at ways to be as economic as possible and this is one of the many ways to do it. Like Ricardo pointed out, everybody uses the technique. Maybe less so in solo compositions (but look at Paco Peña), but the whole point of learning techniques is to apply them in different circumstances and the more you know (or "master"), the better you adapt. I've spent a lot of time earlier this year with Moraíto's falsetas and he uses all variations imaginable. Starting with the i - ieam iami (ii); iiam iiam (ii); iami iami (ii); and other players have other personal variations. To sum up, there are the basic techniques you really can't do without, but in the end it's just fingers and patterns and they give you a lot of options. In the end what matters is still mostly compás and tone, then as you dive deeper, hand economy, material, etc.
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Unlike ALL the paco examples I shared (that you didn’t notice before and don’t even care about now), he is flicking off the thumb resulting in a darker sound, attacking the bass only. It is nice for separation but not the only or even main way it is done. This flicking off thumb every rasgueado has been a primary “fix” I have had to address in lessons for experienced players for years now.
Glad you mentioned this. To my understanding, in some passages it looks like everyone is flicking off the thumb. But in reality they are not. They bend the thumb just to reach more bass strings. Even in opening ras in siguiriya there's no flicking going on. Maybe a slight touch but still no flicking. It's all free stroke. Is my understanding correct?
quote:
My take is, learn to control your fingers so you're versatile enough to play whatever you want to.
It's all about finger independence. Right? I believe the secret of mastering different types of ras is a high degree of finger independence when extensor muscles are active. I'm still working on it.
Posts: 14832
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Is my understanding correct?
As usual, no.
When the thumb bends, pretty much everyone is “flicking” the index off the thumb. The question becomes if the middle finger is or is not. For most of us it does. And for Most of us, the ring finger cant get in there and touch the thumb to load up the flick, so it tucks behind the middle…if pinky is involved it tucks behind the ring, so ‘loaded” in this manner, they fire or flick down, snapping the bass strings strongly one by one for a nice rhythmic separated sounded. This goes back as far as I can hear on recordings, and while common in siguiriyas, it can apply to any situation as needed and taste requires.
Now when the thumb is straight, the fingers don’t load on any finger, and therefore don’t “flick”, but “brush” across the strings, and getting good at it produces just as violent a rhythm as the flicking method, but admittedly it would be more advanced (see Paco Cepero, reminding me to address Stu about “how is it fact”). For sure a stiffness of the finger is required that the flick thing doesn’t need as much, so it is understandable why students revert to the flicking so often. I preferred it myself for years in dance classes and general playing, considering my free rasgueados much weaker sound wise, until I went to spain and saw Gerardo doing the “non-flicking” quadruple time (fast) and powerful in Solea…he went around the room and I could not do it (reloading was too slow for that tempo), or rather I flicked and he corrected me right away. Of course that is when (1999 summer) I abandoned the pure flick thing and started working on the free amii that hits the trebles and gets a much brighter sound. Studying videos of Cepero really helped with speed and control, and I realized the key to the endeavor is the thing I show in the fandango and tangos vids of elite guitarist (i up, ami down gallop). That fixes everything pretty much if you work hard on it.
Now having said all the above, the truth is you can STILL load and flick with a straight thumb, and I have used this on occasion. The pinky ring and middle can seat slightly behind the adjacent finger and the index can still touch the thumb, but a different part than when it is bent, and still “flick” into the strings. The thing with this one is, with a straight thumb, the basses are not targeted so if you wanted them to come out you need to rest the thumb higher up on the top, above the 6th string. We don’t typically flick into the 6th string ever, but anyone can see it is possible anyway.
Posts: 14832
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Why should we master 5 stroke ra... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
Could you explain how Cepero had the best ras as a fact?!
Yes, easily. As a simple example, most of us acknowledge Paco de Lucia as the best flamenco guitarist historically. Even if you prefer, say, Paco Peña or Sabicas, even those two guys admit PDL to be the best or at least as good as the best, whatever you want to quantify that with. Now if an aficionado doesn’t respect any of those guys I just mentioned as tocaores for cante (they are out there trust me), they would still acknowledge that PDL had a technique of playing that is “above average”, even if they don’t like his music or accompaniment. (Considering Mairena was impressed, Chocolate was not, etc, it is a minority that dismisses PDL as not a “good” tocaor).
With that in mind, PDL learned some of Cepero’s typical rasgueados and used them. So did Moraito, and probably Tomatito as well. None of these guys can do it as well as Cepero, plain and simple. Moraito had fake nails and gets a powerful sound that comes close, but in general has a different arsenal of rasg tech, much of which I like to study, that is BETTER than PDL’s as well. Dynamically there is no comparison, Moraito almost does it “flat line” (and much slower normally, reverting to tresillos at fast tempi). Tomatito for me has better dynamics than Moraito, and again his own bag of stuff, but only a close 2nd to Cepero. There are players for Baile that have ridiculous heavy hands, and it is primarily Abanico marote that drives the upper dynamic range, but Cepero has that as well, and used it. Again, there is not much to compare if we equalized the situation. In the end, his sensitivity and precision with cante accompaniment enhances the experience of this technical use of rasg (application), such that I don’t think anyone can name a BETTER accompanist, even we say there are some that equal him (I don’t think so).
My friend who studied with Manolo Sanlucar said, despite him not liking Gerardo Nuñez, he respected him and was jealous of his rasgueados. Having studied with Gerardo, practically worshiping his playing at times, again, he is a footnote to Cepero, it is basic facts.
Here is an example where you won’t find another tocaor recreating a performance like this, in terms of rasgueado. Even now it is quite overwhelming to listen to, and my tendons heat up imaging do this myself:
Most players (that can actually go this fast) project like the version he does at 3:07. Perhaps he does it that way a couple other spots here. But the rest? Forget it.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread