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Hi everyone, I was wondering if there's an approach to follow for developing picado speed. Do you guys recommend some specific excercises or scales to look out for?
Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to metalhead)
I kinda got stuck with picado speed and almost resigned that I wouldn't get much faster as I am not a pro and don't have much practice time. Then randomly I decided to have a look back in gerardo Nunez encuentro tecnica section. I think it's the first 2 or 3 picado exercises.
I'd done then many years back but went over them again and decided to make them my one non negotiable bit of practice for a couple of weeks. Ten mins on them a day at least. Something clicked and my picado has changed up a gear. I wouldn't say I'm suddenly particularly fast. (Defo a bit faster) But something has changed and that something is being adept or more fluid at crossing strings. In both directions.
I think that is the essence of those exercises.
Practicing them methodically and regularly I feel has unlocked a new realm where attaining faster speeds now feels possible.
I guess I'm saying go check them out. They aren't anything ground breaking and I think they or variations appear in many picado exercise books.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
I was wondering if there's an approach to follow for developing picado speed. Do you guys recommend some specific excercises or scales to look out for?
Before working on speed, make sure that 1) your mechanics are good and 2) you can perform the movements in a relaxed manner. This will help avoid injury.
I recommend using the proximal phalanx (i.e. the digit closest to the hand) to drive the movement on your index and middle fingers, keeping the middle and distal phalanx (i.e. the outer digits) on each finger completely relaxed.
A great exercise technique for developing speed and accuracy is staccato, as demonstrated here:
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to machopicasso)
quote:
Before working on speed, make sure that 1) your mechanics are good and 2) you can perform the movements in a relaxed manner.
I think this sums it up well. Of course there is debate about point 1). Point 2) is universal though what that means exactly for an individual varies. It's also important to note there are variations in hand anatomy e.g. connection or not between tendons. This may partly explain differences in technique and ability to relax esp. the ring and little finger.
Once you understand 1 and 2 then exercises for string crossing and speed bursts are useful.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to metalhead)
Lots of staccato practice.
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Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to metalhead)
Since you are a metal guy this video on basic sequences for alternate picking (and left hand ideas that facilitate speedy picking) are essential for developing speed. When I starting working on picado I realized much of these ideas apply to i-m alternation. Basically start with the short basic chunks before sequencing long passages based on those chunks. What you can do is assign the down picking ideas to i and the up-picking ideas to m. PDL used that very first cross string exercise at 5:00 frequently.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to metalhead)
Also I think practicing with three fingers (a,m,,i rest stroke) helps all fingers. When I first saw "Karai Guedes" playing with three fingers, I was amazed! Sounds almost like Paco! When you hear him play, it sounds like he's playing with two fingers! He doesn't accent every three notes like most three fingers players. For me, after Paco, he is the most impressive player who plays scales so fast, clean and very balanced! His sound is incredible! Should we start studying with three fingers? Of course it's not easy! It takes years of practicing to reach this level.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to metalhead)
Talking about 3 finger picado. I've started practicing ma picado lately. I wanted more. So I ended up practicing 3 finger rest strokes ima ami mai mia iam aim. But my focus is still on developing 2 finger im mi picado.
I believe it's important to practice different finger combinations because it supports a balanced strength in your fingers boosting your im mi picado. Just like a body builder should never skip a leg day, you should never skip other finger combinations.
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to amigo)
quote:
When I first saw "Karai Guedes" playing with three fingers, I was amazed! Sounds almost like Paco! When you hear him play, it sounds like he's playing with two fingers!
Speed and timing good but sound, no way. And I cry for that poor guitar the way it is treated but that also could be part of the sound issue for me. Brilliance in the trebles on those runs is missing that would make a big difference.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
When I starting working on picado I realized much of these ideas apply to i-m alternation. .... What you can do is assign the down picking ideas to i and the up-picking ideas to m.
Is there a special reason why you assign i to the down-pick and m to the up-pick?
I know we have discussed starting with i or m before on here, the last thing I remember is saying a pro/teacher told me to start with m on the beat, and IIRR you said to do it the other way round, starting, or playing, with i on the beat.
For a while when I studied with that guitarist I was playing on m, but since then I have been trying to practise, or at least try out, everything both ways. It seems to work better with i, but I don't really understand why.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to metalhead)
I should mention that if Karai's played with a flamenco guitar (blanca or negra), the sound would be much better. For me, I like the sound of it and the way he plays, I wish I could play like that! It's a matter of taste.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to amigo)
So what happens (for him) when the picado run does not align neatly as 3-per-string? Any examples of him dealing with that still using ami? The runs I see here are seemingly all ami 3-per-string runs.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to amigo)
What an amazing player! Thanks for mentioning him.
For some reason I remembered the monster Juanjo Dominguez. There are so many awesome players in Brazil and Argentina.
20 years ago, back when I was still studying classical guitar intensively, I watched on TV a documentary about the Brazilian choro. Leaving aside all the "unknown" to me, exceptional guitarists, what was very hard to understand was the way the young students learned to play guitar sitting in a room all together, maybe 50 of them, and they should just understand what the master played and repeat it. Of course later I saw that the same applied in seminars in Spain (not experienced personally). I was struggling to get my music going even though I always had one to one lessons. So how did all those people learn in this way?
Anyway. I found that a good way to start learning 3 finger picado is doing always ami. It really helped to have something steady. I still do simple exercises and scales this way because I am too bored to study am scales and exercises. This way it is faster and the a finger has its daily workout.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to metalhead)
For me the hardest thing is the accents (Every 4 notes or two, sixteenths or eighths), not the speed, it should sound like you're playing with two fingers! It's too hard! When you want to play two notes on one string, choose as you like, for example M,I, It depends on the phrase. Soon I will make a short video playing with two and three fingers the same phrases.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to amigo)
I always play 16th notes in the 3 finger picado, so that the accent goes on a different finger every time. Phrases can get pretty fast and effortless but always given they are prepared, as far as I am concerned. I cannot use 3 fingers for improvisation though, two is way easier. So I just use 3 finger picado with and without apoyar for training purposes only.
As far as sound and feel I never feel it is the same as the 2 finger picado. It can get really fast but to me it sounds like a 3 finger picado always. 2 finger is different somehow.
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
When I starting working on picado I realized much of these ideas apply to i-m alternation. .... What you can do is assign the down picking ideas to i and the up-picking ideas to m.
Is there a special reason why you assign i to the down-pick and m to the up-pick?
I know we have discussed starting with i or m before on here, the last thing I remember is saying a pro/teacher told me to start with m on the beat, and IIRR you said to do it the other way round, starting, or playing, with i on the beat.
For a while when I studied with that guitarist I was playing on m, but since then I have been trying to practise, or at least try out, everything both ways. It seems to work better with i, but I don't really understand why.
Yes. The answer may be complex to type however, you can just try the first couple Gilbert exercises and discover the reason. Do that first and if you are still curious read below.
So, first picado. When we play apoyando, we attack the strings from below with both fingers, the equivalent of UP stroke picking, regardless of resting or tirando. Most flat pickers are doing the equivalent of tirando. “Sweep or economy” picking would be an upward drag that either picado finger can achieve the Same way and direction as a continuous apoyando stroke, so descending scales and arpegios. All that is reversed for pulgar, where downstroke apoyando is equivalent.
So when playing picado, if we do only ascending scale patterns we must alternate, no dragging works. The first thing we notice is the awkward string crossing that occur due to the length of fingers and orientation of wrist. That means a repeating two note thing between two adjacent strings feels more natural with i on the LOWER string. You can flip that to feel the problem, and exaggerate it by skipping a string between the two notes. Say G and E open. Your i finger on G and m on E is no problem but reverse it and it is very awkward. So picking the same thing you see down pick on G and up on E seems much easier than the opposite. This translates to most of the patterns Gilbert teaches in that video. It is referred to as “outside” picking, where the pick would feel trapped inside the strings or between them, if you did the opposite. Now this thinking worked for everybody that used Gilbert’s video….however, we all had to deal with the basic fact there were EXCEPTIONS to the rule that none the less felt like butter anyway, and it was a mystery and we all ignored it and assumed Gilbert to just a genius teacher and left it at that….until this Troy Grady deciphered the truth.
As revealing as that was, the truth is it does not apply to picado. Gilbert’s patterns still work if you simply assign i to down pick and m to up pick, and it is only because of the string crossing issue in general. Since there is no “pick slanting” equivalent to picado, we have to inevitably deal with awkward crossings, however, we can minimize their frequency simply by switching the starting finger as needed. The best application with picado, after the initial exercises is when Gilbert introduces basic three note patterns straight up in C major starting from F, all the way up the neck, because you get to start getting used to the awkward crossing every other group.
EDIT: Nuance to all the above. I commented on the Troy grady video because he later discovers “swiping” where a single downstroke blasts through TWO strings at once, but left hand only allows the lower note to sound, and the up stroke clears the strings. I watched Gilbert close in a different vid and he does exactly this. So most of the time this nuance of the LEFT HAND blocking un wanted notes allows the pick to blast through strings sloppily. It is very liberating if you realize this and are a fast picking person. In flamenco we do this with rasgueado and tremolo sometimes where we are being slopping with right hand and block unwanted strings with the left. The last thing is that there are stages. I think the Gilbert exercises are to help student get speed only. As you advance you realize you absolutely NEED to get used to awkward crossings. So now if you go back and look close at paco doing the Gilbert lick as I showed, he is doing the OPPOSITE m-i than the one I was suggesting!! So he actually misses a note for this reason. So I recommend students first get used to the easier way and later start experimenting with the awkward version after you are already a speed demon.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Yes. ... you can just try the first couple Gilbert exercises and discover the reason.
quote:
we have to inevitably deal with awkward crossings, however, we can minimize their frequency simply by switching the starting finger as needed
quote:
As you advance you realize you absolutely NEED to get used to awkward crossings.
I watched the Paul Gilbert video up to the ligado section last night. I was never a shredder, when I played electric I never really got beyond 3 chord thrash!
so if the exercise was C, D, E, D, C instead of B, C, D, E, D, C, B you would start with m, at least to begin with? and we need to practise starting with the other finger to get used to the awkward crossing?
you are assigning i and m to down and up picking based on it's the easy way to start and get speed, there's no other reason to be playing i on the beat and m off the beat?
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
I watched the Paul Gilbert video up to the ligado section last night. I was never a shredder, when I played electric I never really got beyond 3 chord thrash!
so if the exercise was C, D, E, D, C instead of B, C, D, E, D, C, B you would start with m, at least to begin with?
Well, yes, but that is a two note on a string exercise that defeats one of the main purposes. Rather than change the exercises just do them as they lie…mindlessly shred. The goal is speed for speed sake (hopefully cleanliness is tied to that).
quote:
and we need to practise starting with the other finger to get used to the awkward crossing?
you are assigning i and m to down and up picking based on it's the easy way to start and get speed, there's no other reason to be playing i on the beat and m off the beat?
You don’t need to do anything until the speed thing has already been achieved. Once you realize how fast you can go, then you can focus on the tricky passages you might encounter, and those will normally be where awkward string crossings occur. For example you might have a picado run where you go fast enough and nail 90% of the notes, but there is always some spot that you get hung up. It is almost always one of those spots where i is on the higher pitch string, and m on the lower one. But once you focus attention on it, it often smooths out. And you soon realize you can achieve the same speeds with awkward crossings.
Finally none of this, nor Gilberts exercises, are about rhythm starting and stopping. This is just speed for speed sake. If you get used to only one finger on the beat, then you will have problems. For example the first Gilbert exercise crossing the string, in almost all musical contexts even he uses it for, the single note on the UP STROKE is the one on the beat or the accented beat. Meaning if you start with a down pick, it is an OFF BEAT. The same applies to fingers obviously. But again, speed is the goal. Timing can be worked on with metronome and both i and m need to control time. Triplets and 3 note per string patterns often necessitate both strokes carrying the beat anyway. 2 and 4 or 8 patterns are the problem were if that is what you work on, the starting stroke always has the beat.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
Then randomly I decided to have a look back in gerardo Nunez encuentro tecnica section. I think it's the first 2 or 3 picado exercises.
the first one i think an old Farruca A major scale falseta, no? and the second one goes down and up triad arpegios in B phrygian on the top 3 strings, each one followed by a couple of scale fragment notes on the top string?
In the book the second one is fingered amimamim, but i usually practise with am, ma, ai, ia, mi, im... i get faster as the right hand fingering gets easier and my brain starts to remember the left hand!
learned a slightly different version of the second one on the one curso i did with Gerardo (never went down to A minor in 1st position, nor E minor at the end, i think it went up from B maj all the way to A minor at 12th position and back to B), and also another one that he just did with triads, no extra scale notes, in B minor. when i get bored with them i transpose them up or down into other keys. Also transpose down an octave and play with pulgar.
no doubt he had many other exercises like these, but i only did one course with him, back in the '90's.
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
You don’t need to do anything until the speed thing has already been achieved. Once you realize how fast you can go, then you can focus on the tricky passages you might encounter, and those will normally be where awkward string crossings occur. For example you might have a picado run where you go fast enough and nail 90% of the notes, but there is always some spot that you get hung up. It is almost always one of those spots where i is on the higher pitch string, and m on the lower one. But once you focus attention on it, it often smooths out. And you soon realize you can achieve the same speeds with awkward crossings.
Finally none of this, nor Gilberts exercises, are about rhythm starting and stopping. This is just speed for speed sake. If you get used to only one finger on the beat, then you will have problems. For example the first Gilbert exercise crossing the string, in almost all musical contexts even he uses it for, the single note on the UP STROKE is the one on the beat or the accented beat. Meaning if you start with a down pick, it is an OFF BEAT. The same applies to fingers obviously. But again, speed is the goal. Timing can be worked on with metronome and both i and m need to control time. Triplets and 3 note per string patterns often necessitate both strokes carrying the beat anyway. 2 and 4 or 8 patterns are the problem were if that is what you work on, the starting stroke always has the beat.
like i said, i never got into shred stuff when i played electric, i never even played a single scale. blame punk! maybe i should look into some of this stuff and adapt for picado... i watched some other vids on youtube too. I don't really follow the stuff about pick angles (i don't think it's really relevant to picado), but there seems to be other ideas that are be applicable...
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to metalhead)
I missed that before. It is fun. Here Rafael after explaining the importance of the staccato in developing picado speed, he actually plays all of me I have seen his videos many years ago and I just remembered him these days. He seems like a fun person, completely dedicated to music. Well, some people need to do this..
He is is dragging one finger as he passes down to the next string (I think it is index). In other words, this pattern is only done descending, you won’t hear the ascending version at that tempo. There was once a long discussion about this, I first thought he used 3 fingers because I had seen him doing that in past live performances for a different phrase.
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How to go about developing picad... (in reply to mark indigo)
This guy has the right technique, speed and control, and advices. However I can tell by the sound his rounded nail shape. If he filed flat he would get a crisp tone and feel less resistance. I can feel that resistance in my own hand as he plays, because I used to use that shape as well.
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So he actually misses a note for this reason. So I recommend students first get used to the easier way and later start experimenting with the awkward version after you are already a speed demon. 
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