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There's this falseta that has 12 notes that are essentially 16th notes. Thus 3 groups of 16th notes. However, the accents are such that instead of falling on the downbeat of the next beat, it falls after every 3 notes. Thus making it sound like there's 4 triplets being played while actually just being 16th notes underneath.
So while counting how we'd normally count a 16th note as 1 e & a, it gets incredibly confusing; because since the accent is every 4th beat we instead try to count is 1 & a 2 & a and so on.
How to properly count it instead of being confused?
RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead)
It would be good to hear what actually the musician playing this, means. There are a lot of weird ways to write down some very simple things in music.
Nevertheless, accenting 16th notes in group of 3s is very common. One way would be to tap your foot on the quarter notes slowly and sing or clap the 16th notes rhythmically accenting them every 3 notes. Drummers do that much too often. It is very easy if you apply it on just 4 quarters because you get 5 accents on 3s and one more 16th note before landing again on the next beat. It gets way trickier to do this in more meters with more practise at hand. If you you do it slowly it is not so difficult, but do it first without the guitar to understand it.
If it is a flamenco piece I would amazed if it had groups of 3s, and it would make actually more sense if those were just triples and someone forgot to write the little 3 number above them
RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead)
Here is a small sample of what I mean. First is foot with counting 4 to understand where you are. Then clapping 16ths and then accenting the 16th notes in groups of 3.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead)
This is Soleá. So we could start there. Whoever transcribed or notated it using guitar pro doesn’t realize that when you select meter (12/4) it gives you option for beaming 8th notes, which would therefore correctly break apart 16th note groupings in 4’s. There is a default setting that has 8ths beamed together and the person transcribing incorrectly left it like that, or possibly, beamed 6th 8th together.
Your question about “how to count” possibly is asking how to best count subdivisions? I recommend the marching drum method “1 e & ah, 2 e & ah, 3 etc”. Despite that simple count, the passage in question is syncopated in groups of 3 against those 4s.
Not to mention my dude, Kai explains how to freakin count it at 1:20 in the same video you are linking.
RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to Ricardo)
kai does explain it how to count, i can count it too. Problem arises when counting with the metronome, because of the 3 feel you subconsciously try counting it as 1 & a 2 & a with the metronome
RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead)
It is useful for this reason to practice typical arpeggio patterns and groupings in different subdivision. PAMI in sextuplets or quintuplets for example. This way one is guided by the feel of the subdivisions and buy driven to feel things a certain way just because of where the thumb is played in a pattern.
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
kai does explain it how to count, i can count it too. Problem arises when counting with the metronome, because of the 3 feel you subconsciously try counting it as 1 & a 2 & a with the metronome
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Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead)
These type of rhythmic tricks are common in modern playing. You just have to go slow until it's ingrained. Funny that devilhand linked to an interview with Paco Serrano cause his music is full of this type of thing. Stuff that sounds rather simple but in fact is super tricky. His intro to this fandango is a good example:
RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
There's this falseta that has 12 notes that are essentially 16th notes. Thus 3 groups of 16th notes. However, the accents are such that instead of falling on the downbeat of the next beat, it falls after every 3 notes. Thus making it sound like there's 4 triplets being played while actually just being 16th notes underneath.
So while counting how we'd normally count a 16th note as 1 e & a, it gets incredibly confusing; because since the accent is every 4th beat we instead try to count is 1 & a 2 & a and so on.
How to properly count it instead of being confused?
Quote from that thread from Ricardo on counting "Remember the math is just a tool for internalizing/communicating the phrasing where eventually, you don’t count anything you just understand what is happening."
So what is happening? you are playing 4 over 3. If you can use a metronome and foot tap as a beat and clap 2 over 3 and 3 over 2 already, then this 4 over 3 thing shouldn't be a problem....
as Mark2 says, this is common in modern playing (especially in Bulerias), but it's not just a "modern" thing, it's been around for decades, as here (recorded 1962!), first falseta at 0:16
Or here (recorded 1992), first falseta here at 0:13
Or for something in Soleá we can go back to Niño Ricardo (courtesy of Ricardo):
Don't know when Niño Ricardo recorded that, 1940's? 1950's? maybe 1960's?
slow version:
maybe get more of the basics down before taking on Cañizares...?
Posts: 14826
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How do u go about counting this ... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
kai does explain it how to count, i can count it too. Problem arises when counting with the metronome, because of the 3 feel you subconsciously try counting it as 1 & a 2 & a with the metronome
You asked about counting, now admit you CAN count it, but it is DIFFICULT to count/play along to a click?
Meaning you have basic rudiments issue to deal with. Learn how to do syncopated rhythms with a metronome, especially basic arpegio patterns. These are quite normal since the time of Niño Ricardo (as the previous posts showed in examples). Look up basic marching drum rudiments as a start and apply those rhythms either strumming or plucking single notes, then apply the same rhythms to arpegios etc. Perhaps developing the hands drumming on a table will help as well. Simply put, strip away the melody and focus on pure rhythm. 3 against 2, 3 against 4, 6 against 4, etc, all basic common poly rhythms found in any music.
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