Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep Andalusia in step with history
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
 RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
|
|
|
quote:
Fiona Hill was one of the highest ranking members of the Administration to testify stoutly against Trump in his second impeachment. After that she wrote "There's Nothing For You Here: Finding Opportunity in the 21st Century."
The main title is a quote from her father, whose employment at the coal mines ended when they closed. Her mother was a nurse. Through her mother her father found work as a janitor in a hospital. Her father advised Fiona to do everything she could to get a good education. It was the only path out of the stagnant backwater of northern England for a bright, ambitious girl.
She succeeded. She excelled at the local public schools, and attracted the support of the local Labor Member of Parliament. He and other relatively successful local people cued her in to sources of support, and spoke up for her.
She was invited to apply to Oxford. She didn't know that the invitation to dinner was part of the interview process, so she ate with friends instead. All the rich kids knew, because that was something their family or friends told them. But nobody told Fiona, so she missed the dinner and didn't get into Oxford.
She made into Saint Andrews instead, earned high honors, spent time in Russia, as an exchange student. She came to the USA and got a Masters and a PhD from Harvard.
She was an intelligence analyst under G.W. Bush and Obama, and wrote the book on Vladimir Putin (up until 2014); "Mr. Putin: An Operative in the Kremlin." Later she was on the National Security Council.
Under Trump she was Deputy Assistant to the President and Senior Director for European and Russian affairs on the National Security Council.
I saw her in a TV interview after she was back at the Brookings Institution. Complimented on her accomplishments, she said, "Even with my degrees and experience, with my accent I would never have had such jobs in the British government."
Having worked for the British government as a contractor part time for several years, I nodded in agreement. As an American, they couldn't place me in their class system. I had British friends from a variety of backgrounds. But the status of each didn't necessarily depend upon their abilities, knowledge or experience.
By the time of the interview Fiona had been in the USA for a long time. Her accent didn't seem all that strong to me, but an astute Englishman no doubt could have put her birthplace within 50-mile radius.
"There's Nothing For You Here" recounts the many obstacles in the path of a poor girl with a bad accent from a backward part of England, and how she overcame them, with the help of people and institutions.
The last couple of chapters of her book are devoted to summarizing the British institutions where a girl from a bad place, with a bad accent, but a sharp mind and ambitious disposition could find support. She contrasts this with the relative lack of such institutions in the USA, leading to even greater difficulties for disadvantaged youth in this country.
RNJ
Richard, I don't know that any of the above has anything to do with the Andalusian attempt to legislate the definition of flamenco. Nevertheless, I share your admiration and appreciation of Fiona Hill. I, too, watched her testimony and read her book, and she is a prime example of someone who not only took advantage of what help was available to her, institutional and personal, but had the initiative and drive required to see it through. She is in the top tier of Russian analysts and deserves the accolades she has received.
As has been noted, Hill is something of an outlier, given her modest background and obstacles she faced. We have had similar individuals who reached the highest levels of American government as well. John J. McCloy comes to mind. A man of modest background whose drive and determination saw him through Harvard, president of the World Bank, appointed High Commissioner for Germany by President Truman, and other diplomatic posts. Speaking of Truman, he is another example of a man of modest background who obviously reached the highest levels of American government. There is always an element of help along the way, but the primary element is individual initiative and drive. And Fiona Hill demonstrated that in spades.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 14 2023 18:20:42
 |
|
AndresK
Posts: 309
Joined: Jan. 4 2019
From: Patras, Greece
|
|
RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
So, it seems some artists do want this, or pretend to want this due to various "interests" that will possibly affect them? In the first article it says that
"As the legislation was passed, it was greeted with traditional hand clapping which is typical in flamenco from star dancers Farruquito and Cristina Hoyos, and the guitarist Tomatito among others in the government chamber in Seville.
So has anyone read all these in depth and can explain us in simple words how the following statement stands:
"Arturo Bernal, the Andalusian regional spokesman for culture, said the region "will continue to be a cradle of flamenco" thanks to this legislation."
How can a legislation help? Can it bring more money from the government to the artists there who produce the "legitimate" flamenco?
Or maybe this law is to ensure people like Paco de Lucia will be stopped in the future? I must say at this point that I remember someone, here at the foro I think, saying he was studying in the musical conservatory of Granada, and that in there Vicente Amigo was not flamenco. I also recall a well known guitarist here in Greece, after the concert of Paco in Athens years ago, saying that, that music was not flamenco. On one side I thought how could he be saying something like that for a man that I am sure even his fart could be more flamenco than many other pretending to know flamenco. On the other side I was relieved as a performing guitarist because I thought if someone has something negative to say about Paco I will definitely be no exception, and it's ok.
So anyone to share his insights on this new legislation?
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 15 2023 12:07:10
|
|
estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
|
|
RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
In regards to UNESCO - as you all may know there are three main types of criteria for qualification as an UNESCO World Heritage designation. Cultural, Biological and Mixed - it’s more more specific with about ten detailed points of criteria which the award granters recognize.
But what you have to ask yourself is who and why do they benefit once World Heritage has been established? It seems altruistic and noble, but in the case of so many locations or cultural activities, the situation or place is held in perpetuity for the public of the world, but who makes the money on the honorific of ‘world heritage site’?
The people who hold the rental spaces and contracts for catering, lodging, transportation, education etc.
Don’t fool yourself into thinking that the Spanish government actually cares about the people who invented flamenco and pass it through their families. Those folks will always do that regardless of how bad the times are, think how they kept it going during the Franco regime. This looks more to be about tourism and marketing, but on the surface it look like they actually care. It’s been known for decades events like the Sevilla Bienal de flamenco is a huge event for tourists to come from around the world, but Sevilla city is still ashamed of Gitano culture that’s not flamenco.
It’s like jazz in the USA, it’s our classical music, it’s a world heritage cultural, other countries have adopted jazz as an important art form. We have been able to trace jazz to its origins and documented on vinyl how it developed, it’s a major part of jr. High and High School public music curriculum, but hardly any of the teachers are black, and half of our political culture now reveals itself to not only be okay with overt racism, but they are making claims to the contrary. They are pushing a grievance based politics based on the systemic abuse of the so called ‘white working class’.
I’ll believe it a little bit when I see Gitanos on the boards of directors and steering committees of the organizations this will create to ‘protect’ flamenco. And whether or not these Gitano’s are able to say anything about discrimination and whether they are hired to work within academia and public schools. The artists who are applauding this legislation know what it means and that the fact they mention how covid blocked tourism and as a result devastated the music venue industry and its attendant businesses of tourism support, they seem to be pulling as team members for the country and its greater economy as much as for flamenco.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 16 2023 0:14:37
|
|
Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
|
|
RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
|
|
|
quote:
For some, the beauty of Spain’s folkloric flamenco dance is ineffable.
Anything is effable if effing it can get you votes or money.
quote:
Can it be used to prosecute Rosalia?
I don't see anything punitive in there. The closest thing to a restriction on artists seems to be article 28.4, on legacy real estate assets. Basically saying that the events held in those buildings have to be consistent with flamenco values and the historical value of the place. I interpret it as meaning "no twerking pool parties at La Platería". But it's vague enough that you could imagine it being misapplied to cancel shows that most would reasonably consider flamenco but may not be to the taste of a certain crowd.
The real fun with those kinds of preservation laws emerges when they try to apply it and you find out that it conflicts with other laws. For instance, there's an inn in a historical building in Granada that has a fully functional toilet just sitting in an open hallway on the ground floor. Accessibility laws said they had to have a toilet accessible for disabled people. Preservation laws prevented them from making any of the changes they would've needed to make to set up a proper bathroom on that floor or an elevator to get to the toilet on the upper floor. Go figure.
My favorite part is article 4.l). It explains that one of the aims of this law is to ensure gender equality and the like. Except there's literally nothing in the text, other than this one line, that is even remotely about that. I guess they pulled a Daenerys and kind of just forgot about it. Realistically it's probably just an automatic insert they add to any new piece of legislation, but it's funnier to think it was an afterthought. - God damn it Juan, you forgot the women and gays again! - No worries, just add a vague line in the intro. That'll get them off our backs. Besides, it's not like anyone is going to read this anyway.
More generally, I honestly don't know whether legislation of this sort can have any real effect. All I can do is acknowledge the sense of threat and loss that is felt by so many in this context of mass erosion of cultures.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 16 2023 18:35:38
|
|
Morante
Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
|
|
RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to RobF)
|
|
|
quote:
Here is an article in Dario de Sevilla.
This article is the kind of woffle that you might expect. The best part is a comment by a reader:
Ni la música clásica, ni el jazz, ni el rock han precisado nunca de una ley para su desarrollo, enseñanza y puesta en práctica. El flamenco necesita que se le deje respirar en manos de quienes saben, con menos burocracia e intervencionismo público. Tardará mucho tiempo en llegar, si es que llega, la puesta en práctica de esta ley llena de buenas intenciones y promesas vacías. Ojalá me equivoque.
Neither classical music, nor jazz, nor rock has ever needed a law for its development, study and practice. Flamenco needs to be let breathe in the hands of people who know, with less bureaucracy and public intervention. It will take a long time coming, if it arrives, the execution of this law, full of good intentions and empty promises. I hope I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 17 2023 11:20:51
|
|
RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
|
|
RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
Neither classical music, nor jazz, nor rock has ever needed a law for its development, study and practice. Flamenco needs to be let breathe in the hands of people who know, with less bureaucracy and public intervention.
Exactly my point several comments upthread. The fools promoting this law think they are expanding flamenco's appreciation in Andalusia when in fact they are putting it in a legal ossuary.
Bill
The Foro appears to have weighed in heavily to reject the notion of this law as over-reach and yet did so before even seeing the legislation or having the opportunity to consider the reactions of the flamenco community in Spain.
The negative reactions, in part, seem to be based on the natural aversion to the idea that the state is attempting to legislate and control art and culture, effectively freezing and stifling it. But what if the intent is to preserve the structures that allow it to flourish? In other words, how are the means to nurture an art going to be protected in today’s world? What is to protect culture from the activities of corrupt politicians, out of control developers and rich foreign owners? None of those parties are going to look out for the interests of any community, let alone the flamenco community, unless forced to through legislation.
I’m pretty cynical about almost everything politicians and lawmakers have a hand in, too, but I think some level of faith has to be extended towards the goodwill of the architects. While the legislation may appear ridiculous on the surface, especially to foreigners, it’s only a matter of respect to allow it to play out and wait for the reactions of those most affected before rejecting it as out of hand.
I suspect there will be both good and bad come out of it. It’ll evolve.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 17 2023 14:25:08
|
|
estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
|
|
RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to RobF)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RobF
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
Neither classical music, nor jazz, nor rock has ever needed a law for its development, study and practice. Flamenco needs to be let breathe in the hands of people who know, with less bureaucracy and public intervention.
Exactly my point several comments upthread. The fools promoting this law think they are expanding flamenco's appreciation in Andalusia when in fact they are putting it in a legal ossuary.
Bill
The Foro appears to have weighed in heavily to reject the notion of this law as over-reach and yet did so before even seeing the legislation or having the opportunity to consider the reactions of the flamenco community in Spain.
The negative reactions, in part, seem to be based on the natural aversion to the idea that the state is attempting to legislate and control art and culture, effectively freezing and stifling it. But what if the intent is to preserve the structures that allow it to flourish? In other words, how are the means to nurture an art going to be protected in today’s world? What is to protect culture from the activities of corrupt politicians, out of control developers and rich foreign owners? None of those parties are going to look out for the interests of any community, let alone the flamenco community, unless forced to through legislation.
I’m pretty cynical about almost everything politicians and lawmakers have a hand in, too, but I think some level of faith has to be extended towards the goodwill of the architects. While the legislation may appear ridiculous on the surface, especially to foreigners, it’s only a matter of respect to allow it to play out and wait for the reactions of those most affected before rejecting it as out of hand.
I suspect there will be both good and bad come out of it. It’ll evolve.
Art exists outside of law, that’s why art is art and law is law. Art works because it’s transgressive by nature. Law can set up a boundary that art can use as a place to transgress.
If we want art that’s not transgressive, may as well call Muzak flamenco. Flamenco will continue despite the government attempt to rubber stamp it. And the only people will make money from the rubber stamp permissions are non transgressive artists; the government will not abide transgression of its rules.
So in a sense it doesn’t matter if flamenco battles law which ironically tries to save it, or a society at large that seeks to oppress flamenco. Both are enemies of creative work in the end. Flamenco will exist because it’s a formal art system based on compas and that cannot be legislated.
The government attempt at caring is a form of control. It’s a form of codification of something that cannot be contained. But the artists with agents who understand how to write grants and play in the system will make money. But is making money the same as making art?
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 17 2023 15:32:36
|
|
Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
|
|
RE: Flamenco defined by law to keep ... (in reply to RobF)
|
|
|
quote:
But what if the intent is to preserve the structures that allow it to flourish?
To quote a friend who used to rely on that kind of place to make a living: "But you know, if we had had that kind of law up here, Casa Patas might still be open today."
Views in Andalucia might tend to be more cynical, just because they already have some degree of governmental support and some institutions funded by taxpayer money, so they have complaints based on prior experience, complaints about what doesn't work, corruption, etc. But in a place where everything relies entirely on the private economy without a chance in hell for anything remotely close to a subsidy or any form of public assistance, that law is understandably going to be viewed more favorably.
The arguments against including it in education are a red herring IMHO. No, doing that won't make young people shift en masse towards flamenco. What it will do, or so they hope, is build some baseline knowledge and appreciation for the role flamenco has played in the region. Tbh I'm more surprised that it wasn't already part of the mandatory curriculum in Andalucia.
Anyway, back to real life.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 17 2023 18:50:55
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.109375 secs.
|
Printable Version
