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RE: Paco Falseta Tutorial 9, Siguiriyas (in reply to Ricardo)
Always enjoy! Thanks for sharing your wisdom.
A while back I started working on Luzia and got a bit stuck on the beginning “lyrical” part. It does sound very loose and I had some self doubt about timings. I’ll have to revisit!
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco Falseta Tutorial 9, Siguiriyas (in reply to Ricardo)
I don’t get why the HD quality has not kicked in by now. I can admit the original video is 1080 X 640 or whatever. It used to process and a day later or so the HD option appears.
RE: Paco Falseta Tutorial 9, Siguiriyas (in reply to Ricardo)
At 8:25 in the video, you mention that, in your experience working with dancers, it's only the five accents that are counted, as opposed to the entire 12 beats of the compas.
1. Is there any other palo where it's normal to count only the accents?
2. Any idea why siguiriyas is (sometimes? often? normally?) counted in this way?
3. The alternative model of representing all 12 beats, starting the compas on 8, and accenting 8, 10, 12, 3, and 6 has always made more sense to me. Are there any limitations of that model (aside from the practical one that the dancers aren't counting it that way)?
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco Falseta Tutorial 9, Siguiriyas (in reply to machopicasso)
quote:
ORIGINAL: machopicasso
At 8:25 in the video, you mention that, in your experience working with dancers, it's only the five accents that are counted, as opposed to the entire 12 beats of the compas.
1. Is there any other palo where it's normal to count only the accents?
2. Any idea why siguiriyas is (sometimes? often? normally?) counted in this way?
3. The alternative model of representing all 12 beats, starting the compas on 8, and accenting 8, 10, 12, 3, and 6 has always made more sense to me. Are there any limitations of that model (aside from the practical one that the dancers aren't counting it that way)?
1. Martinete and other cantes sin guitarra, that dancers might utilize or connect to siguiriyas. Serrana and Livana as well, if danced. 2. It is not symmetrical, ie, it is not possible to cut the phrase in half based on an accent point. 3. Mapping the 12 count over non-Solea related palos will always have different results than the original 1-10 concept has. I show my version of using counting 12 to understand the phrases of Fandango, but I am not mapping the accent pattern or trying to align them the way some people do. I feel that the accent pattern is not the important thing about counting. It is simply to understand the head and the tail of the compas…so shifting the count around to align accents stems from the misconception that 12 count patterns require number 12 or 6 to be “downbeats” all the time. Doing so changes the secret language of Solea related compas forms where the code phrase (1,2,3…7,8,9,10) needs to be understood and applied at times.
What I have realized is that the other rhythms that just so happen to mathematically add up to 12, don’t necessarily use those same code phrases, they have their own inherent ones. Therefore it makes more sense that, if you must count at all, that one should start from count 1 and apply accent and phrase where ever the heck it falls. For example siguiriyas could be 1,3,5,8, 11. That would make more sense to me, however, I have never heard a dancer doing that. Some musicians that have training outside of flamenco have adapted the simple odd meter system (7+5) which I also consider valid if we assume the musician is good with odd meter. Remember the math is just a tool for internalizing/communicating the phrasing where eventually, you don’t count anything you just understand what is happening.
RE: Paco Falseta Tutorial 9, Siguiriyas (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
For example siguiriyas could be 1,3,5,8, 11. That would make more sense to me, however, I have never heard a dancer doing that.
I have
Alongside 1+, 2+, 3+a, 4+a, 5+, I have also encountered 12, 2, 4, 7, 10 AND the one you mentioned, 1, 3, 5, 8, 11... although my personal favourite is un y dos y tres y morcilla morcilla! (I don't actually use it though... )
quote:
Remember the math is just a tool for internalizing/communicating the phrasing where eventually, you don’t count anything you just understand what is happening.
there should be some kind of algo-rhythm thing that automatically posts that in response to all questions about counting and arguments about the "right" way of counting.
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