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High tension strings and legatos
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Ricardo
Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: High tension strings and legatos (in reply to trivium91)
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High tension strings allow more bass response and give the illusion of a louder guitar. Raising the action does the same thing. I find, in general, if the guitar is set up well, normal tension strings are more balanced across the scale. If a guitar is too soft and buzzy low action, higher tension strings can off set that a bit. So I also prefer normal tension strings if possible. Savarez tend to be harder than normal tension, so their “normal” tension compares to say Daddario hard tension IMO. The Tomatito strings break…I went through a couple packs and so did my colleagues when they were first on the market. I watched Low E, D, and high E strings pop on stage…in the same gig. It was hilarious. In my case it was the A string that popped, twice. This never happens to me with any other brand (unless the strings are super old, and always the D string only). They sounded great for the few hours they lasted, and my colleague got them cheap through a friend working at the store. This was back in like 2013 so perhaps quality control has addressed the issue? I wouldn’t know I simply avoid ‘em. You can read the old comments here: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=228953&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=tomatito%2Cstrings
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Aug. 11 2022 17:56:19
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Ricardo
Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: High tension strings and legatos (in reply to trivium91)
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quote:
It takes me 45 minutes to change a full set of strings due to the fact you have to tune the strings 10 times in the first 20 minutes. Im playing the Cordoba Paco F7 (Negra) which came with hard tension savarez strings, I've been buying them up in bulk since the bass strings don't last long at all, by the fourth week they sound like crap and I play on average 1.25 hours a day 7 days a week. As much as I loved the sound of Savarez, yes they used to die very quick so I stopped using them. If you want advice on changing sets, this is what I do. Two or three minutes per string, I start with trebles and and end with basses (in order 1-6). I tune SHARP by half step (F,C,G# etc). Each new string that goes on I tie it on the roller, with all slack pulled hard, then re tune the previous string(s). I don’t take off old strings at once, replace one by one. By the time I put on the low 6th, the entire guitar is almost settled, SHARP by half step, and I check the whole guitar and play a little bit on it. Only about 15min or so, and I am done. It goes in the case, in the car, and by the time I get to the gig, the strings have all pulled DOWN to concert pitch and it’s ready to play.
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Aug. 12 2022 17:51:58
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: High tension strings and legatos (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo "legato" is a term relating to articulation and means notes are smoothly joined together. As opposed to "staccato" where the notes are sharply separated. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with hammer-ons or pull-offs - the word for those is "LIGADOS" jus sayin... Diccionario de la Real Academia Española https://dle.rae.es/ligado Ligado 3. m. Mús. Unión de dos puntos sosteniendo el valor de ellos y nombrando solo el priimero. 4. m. Mús. Modo de ejecutar una serie de notas diferentes sin interrupción de sonido entre unas y otras, por contraposición al picado. [4. Mode of executing a series of different notes without interrupting the sound from one to the next, in contrast to staccato.] In Italian and English, "legato." Diccionario https://dle.rae.es/picado?m=form 8. m. Mús. Modo de ejecutar una serie de notas interrumpiendo momentáneamente el sonido entre unas y otras, por contraposición al ligado. [Mode of executing a series of note, momentarily interrupting the sound from one to the next, in contrast to legato.] In Italian and English, "staccato." Despite what the Diccionario says, you might not immediately make yourself understood to a flamenco guitarist by calling hammer-ons and pull-offs "legatos." However many Italians and Spaniards find their languages to be almost mutually intelligible. Both flamenco and classical guitarists speak a slightly different language from wind or bowed instrument players. In english "slur" often applies to only a few connected notes, "legato" usually describes a longer passage. On a wind instrument you can play a passage without tonguing articulation for as long as you have the breath to do it. On a bowed instrument you can play without articulation until you reach the end of the bow. When he conducted the Philadelphia Orchestra, Stokowski invented a unique legato sound in the strings by splitting the bowing within sections so that in long legato passages, half the section was in the middle of the bow as the other half reached the end, etc. More bow could be used, creating a fuller sound, without having to try so hard to conceal the inevitable articulation when reversing direction. This technique was continued by Ormandy and subsequent conductors--though the last time I heard the Philadelphians in person years ago they weren't quite as lush sounding under Muti as in the Ormandy days. On the guitar or piano each note has to be sounded. "Legato" on classical guitar means no separation between notes, and a very gentle right hand action. RNJ
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Date Aug. 14 2022 2:57:00
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: High tension strings and legatos (in reply to trivium91)
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quote:
Interestingly enough, the tomatito normal tension savarez strings are more similar to savarez 500CJ normal tension strings than high tension. The Savarez Tomatito sets are made up of pre-existing Savarez strings. The basses are Cantiga, the 3rd is Alliance (fluorocarbon) and the 1st and 2nd strings are New Cristal, so the Tomatito sets are identical to the Creation Cantiga sets. I even had a set of Tomatito with some of the individual strings wrapped in Cantiga paper envelopes instead of the Tomatito paper envelopes. Strings identical. I dunno if the problems some have had with the 4th breaking on the same day they were put on were to do with a dodgy batch, or something else, but I never had a problem with them when I was using them (on Conde A26, now sold, and on Conde A25R which I still have). They take a little while to settle, and sound totally brilliant for at least a while before they wear out. Sure D'Addario last longer, they never seem to actually wear out, and never break, but they always felt stiff and inflexible to me on those guitars compared to the Savarez, and sounded like worn out dead from when I put them on (again in comparison to the Savarez).
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Date Aug. 14 2022 22:01:04
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: High tension strings and legatos (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Ligado=bound or tied together, aka “legato” or “slur”, not individually articulated. Legado=legacy. As I understand it, the word "Ligado" is Spanish, and the word "Legato" is Italian. They both have more or less the same literal meaning: tied or bound, deriving from the Latin "Ligare" to bind. In 30-ish years of learning/playing flamenco guitar I have only ever heard hammer-ons and pull-offs referred to as "ligados", never as "legatos" EXCEPT in some cases of poor translations of Spanish to English made by non-English speakers or non-musicians who have basically used a literal type translation to render the Spanish word "ligados" into English with the Italian word "legatos" (like an auto-translate or a literal and un-idiomatic dictionary translation). I never studied classical guitar before flamenco, but have dipped into classical guitar method and technique books out of curiosity, and in the sources I have looked at hammer-ons and pull-offs have never been referred to as "legatos" but have also been referred to as "ligados". Legato has always been used to refer to smooth connected playing, regardless of the use of hammer-ons or pull-offs. Many words have general meanings in Spanish and/but specific meanings in flamenco: compás, remate, duende etc. etc. IMO it is better to keep the Spanish words than constantly try to render them into English as bar, killing off, elf etc. Same with "ligados" especially when that word is used specifically in relation to the Spanish (flamenco or classical) guitar to mean hammer-ons and pull-offs, while "legatos" is an Italian word with a general musical meaning relating to articulation. I have taken a look around the net to check this out a bit, and noticed the wikipedia article on "legato" in music has a section on guitar which starts "In guitar playing (apart from classical guitar) legato is used interchangeably as a label for both musical articulation and a particular application of technique" and goes on to talk about electric guitar. I think it is fairly safe to include flamenco with classical guitar as an exception to the use of "legato" interchangeably as a term for both articulation and technique. I have no idea if "legato" is actually used interchangeably as a term for articulation and technique in other guitar styles - there are no references to back up any of this wikipedia article. I also came across a guitarist called "Vic Dillahay" as my search terms turned up a page on his website with this: "Legato (Italian for “tied together”) Bound together. Performance of music so that there is no perceptible pause between notes, i.e. in a smooth manner, the opposite of staccato. The Oxford Dictionary of Music Ligado (Spanish for “connected”) A guitar technique in which a note is sounded either by pulling sideways or by hammering down on a string on the fingerboard using a finger of the fretting hand. The New Grove Dictionary of Jazz, 2nd edition So, guitarists often use ligado technique as part of legato phrasing. We can also pick legato phrases and use ligado to play staccato."
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Date Aug. 21 2022 22:49:04
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: High tension strings and legatos (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
LEGATO is a perfectly acceptable usage to imply LH slur phrasing. Except that, AFAIK, "Legato" is not used in flamenco guitar, or even classical guitar, to mean the left hand technique of hammer-ons and pull-offs. The word used is "Ligados". Like I said, the only time I have come across it in flamenco is bad translations from Spanish to English by non-native English speakers (and I mean bad in lots of idiomatic and grammatical ways, not just that one word). Of course, anyone can use any word to mean anything they like... A friend of ours got a new pet, a dog, and called him Henry. When we saw her I said, "how's it going with Henry?" She said, "Oh, great, I love going dogging" "You what?!" "I really love going dogging" "You do know what that means, don't you?" "Yeah, it means taking your dog for a walk" "er, no, it means something quite different to that" "well, it means taking the dog for a walk to me" "ok, but don't be surprised if you get some strange looks if you tell people you are going "dogging"!" true story!
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Date Aug. 22 2022 19:47:43
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