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Gypsies never create, they are mere interpreters...
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Steelhead
Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 20 2014
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 Gypsies never create, they are mere ...
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In case you thought no one nowadays would have the chutzpah to propound this old canard, here is veteran flamencologist José Luis Ortiz Nuevo explicitly voicing it. Gypsies only interpret, all the genuine MUSICIANS, that is, creators, of flamenco have been gachos (except for el Mellizo and Ramón Montoya).
<<Camarón, Mairena, Pastora... eran interpretes.
Los grandes músicos eran gachos excepto dos.
Los grandes músicos eran Silverio, Chacon,
Pepe marchena y Enrique morente
Esos son los grandes músicos aparte de los tocaores,, Paco de lucena, Niño Ricardo, Sabicas y Paco lucia.
Los gitanos tiene ese metal, el leco, pero los grandes músicos son los gachos salvo dos el Mellizo y Ramón montoya
A Caracol se lo compusieron, era un intérprete, a Mairena igual a Camarón igual y el Lebrijano igual. Tienen esa garganta ese metal y los gachos tiene otra capacidad para crear, otra inquietud, que a mi entender Enrique morente es el más valioso ejemplo de músico flamenco>>
https://www.facebook.com/mario.daza.161/videos/602685450926512
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Steelhead
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 16 2022 22:29:31
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Gypsies never create, they are m... (in reply to Steelhead)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Steelhead
In case you thought no one nowadays would have the chutzpah to propound this old canard, here is veteran flamencologist José Luis Ortiz Nuevo explicitly voicing it. Gypsies only interpret, all the genuine MUSICIANS, that is, creators, of flamenco have been gachos (except for el Mellizo and Ramón Montoya).
<<Camarón, Mairena, Pastora... eran interpretes.
Los grandes músicos eran gachos excepto dos.
Los grandes músicos eran Silverio, Chacon,
Pepe marchena y Enrique morente
Esos son los grandes músicos aparte de los tocaores,, Paco de lucena, Niño Ricardo, Sabicas y Paco lucia.
Los gitanos tiene ese metal, el leco, pero los grandes músicos son los gachos salvo dos el Mellizo y Ramón montoya
A Caracol se lo compusieron, era un intérprete, a Mairena igual a Camarón igual y el Lebrijano igual. Tienen esa garganta ese metal y los gachos tiene otra capacidad para crear, otra inquietud, que a mi entender Enrique morente es el más valioso ejemplo de músico flamenco>>
https://www.facebook.com/mario.daza.161/videos/602685450926512
Before people get bent out of shape by the implications there, first of all mellizo is the only cantaor I am aware of who has an anecdote about stealing some other melody and turning it into an already established form (Malagueña). The anecdote is on wiki about mellizo that he heard a priest sing it and was inspired to use it for his own thing (I think it is in Alvarez Caballero? Would be great if someone could track down the source of that). Right there, we see how “creation” works. Chacon did the same thing with Canario’s malagueña (in case you believe that Canario created his own malagueña which of course could be the same type of thing going on). And the bigger irony of all was (the same flamencologist I think, oritiz nuevo?) Pericon was asked about the origin and he said they got a bundle of Flemish scores in Cadiz in 1512, picked the best songs to learn, then passed the bundle up to Jerez and finally Sevilla. In a sense no one is a creator possibly (and indeed what I believe), anymore than there are “creators” of the blues. The Forms have a basis that was left behind to be interpreted, that is the whole point of the genre.
As soon as singers and guitar players invent “new” music, they necessarily change the forms and therefore it is not accepted or doesn’t “breed true” and carry forward. There are rare cases such as famous letras by Pepe de Lucia or Vicente Amigo that were “catchy” in their day and still used, but for the most part, anything that is not “canon” is rejected as part of the lexicon. While inspiration can come from any source, the truth is that since it first appears, flamenco is inspiring new singers and guitar players with its own classic repertoire. That by nature has to be interpretive and not creative.
EDIT: I tracked down the Mellizo anecdote finally. It is from Manuel Ortega (father of Caracol) telling to Pericon. Although Alvarez Caballero does not use proper citations for this, I assume it is found in 1000 and 1 histories of Pericon…as told to the same Flamencologist that started this thread, Ortiz Nuevo. The story goes he heard singing of a cura (priest) in Iglesia de Santa Maria (his neighborhood in Cadiz, near to his butcher shop). The quote is vague and does not directly apply to him using a specific melody as much as being influenced for cante in general. The only specific attribution is the intro (that only Pericon does as far as I know) which is a spin on the normal intro all malagueñas use (Am-F, F7-E), using liturgical lyrics with extra chord G, (Am-G-F-E).
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 17 2022 16:06:25
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Fluknu
Posts: 151
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
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RE: Gypsies never create, they are m... (in reply to Steelhead)
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Maybe "creation" is just when the existing material you use/mix/transform/scultp cannot bee seen, just enough so you're still in the "Doxa", or else you become apocryphe :)
I've always thought that creativity had nothing to do with making appear something out of nothing (which is physically impossible) but more about inverting/mixing/changing/cutting/adding and so on....
There are of course breakthrough in every domain, when we think "that is totally new". But I believe it's still the same process. A new level of complexity, certainly - like when you go from single cells to the organisation of cells and then to the building of an organ - but still, it follows the same principles.
But another thing I often see in music is the interpretation, and I'm talking about the live interpretation of music. A song can be totally new in the moment, when the artists transcend themselves, and it's as if it was the first time it was created. On the opposite side you have all those stars playing their hits at a concert for 1000' time. Like good clerks :)
I guess we should probably look at the songs as always new material and never the same. Something new, beautiful and dangerous.
Bla bla bla :) I'm stoping here.
Fluknu
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Date Apr. 17 2022 20:03:18
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