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Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What is your string of choice an... (in reply to trivium91)
quote:
Right so you are saying they could be using some marketing trickery. Well what can you do, $900 Cad for a guitar seems like a decent chunk of change. The Iberia lineup in general seems to cost more than your average guitar for what it is. How much does one have to spend to ensure their guitar is truly hand made?
"Marketing trickery" might be too strong a term for what I mean. But the term "hand made" does have a certain cachet that implies an artisanal approach, even if the guitar is made via a modified assembly line production mode. I have never thought of the cost of a guitar as being the determining factor as to whether or not it is truly "hand made" by a master luthier. Such an instrument would no doubt be at the upper end of the cost graph, however.
I would not worry too much about it if I were you. You have a nice guitar that you like. Enjoy it. I only mentioned the possibility that it was not really hand made because you seemed to place great faith in the documentation stating that it was without questioning what was meant by "hand made."
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3487
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: What is your string of choice an... (in reply to BarkellWH)
In the January, 1982 issue of "Frets" magazine there is an interview with Jose Ramirez III. He details the process of constructing his top of the line instruments, designated "1a" in those days.
Different parts of the instrument were made by different individuals, depending upon the skill required. The final assembly was done by one of the designated "oficiales," the highest ranking artisans, except for the foreman of the workshop, who also assembled guitars.
Something I had wondered about for a long time, but regretted not asking Felix Manzanero, Manuel Contreras Sr., Paulino Bernabe Sr. or Ramirez himself, was how much freedom the oficial had in thicknessing the top and fan braces, key dimensions in determining the quality of the instrument. All emphasized Ramirez's insistence on adhering to his design.
Ramirez says the tops were machined to a standard thickness by other workers, but the final half millimeter or so was determined by the oficial whose initials were on the foot of the neck inside the guitar. No mention is made of final dimensioning of the fan braces, but I suppose that may have been left up to the oficial's judgment as well.
Many operations on Ramirez's famous guitars were done by machine, or by less skilled artisans, but the highly critical judgment of top dimension was left to the most skilled.
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What is your string of choice an... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
Hand made? ¿Quien sabe?
Yes. It is a very fluid concept. The term is often used in order to evoke an artisanal approach suggesting the guilds of the Middle Ages when in fact it just as often is nothing of the sort.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: What is your string of choice an... (in reply to Piwin)
I bet there are other places in Europe that are cheaper, Savarez are made in france d'addario in the US. It makes sense to use the European strings i would think as taxes and duties would be cheaper. Im in canada and strings by mail has impressed me, the shipping is quick and only about ~$10 per shipment to canada. It could be worth a shot.
RE: What is your string of choice an... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
Yes. It is a very fluid concept. The term is often used in order to evoke an artisanal approach suggesting the guilds of the Middle Ages when in fact it just as often is nothing of the sort.
Bill
yes i see your point, i did envision a chinamen chewing tea leaves and laboring over my guitar for hours to build it. Sadly that likely is not the case, lol. Ignorance was bliss...
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What is your string of choice an... (in reply to trivium91)
You can ask any luthier, it is not really possible to build a guitar for $900, as the materials cost more than that. $3000 is about the lowest I think handbuilders can get away with and make profit. The reason guitars cost less than that is that there is a relatively larger “factory” of sorts where they have many workers doing different parts (many “by hand”, some by machines), and are pushing out so many cheap guitars per year that they can afford to buy materials in bulk in order to significantly lower costs and reduce build times. The cheaper the guitar the more they sell of those models to balance the costs to make them. When the higher end models get into the $2-3000 range, things get tricky. “Factory” guitars like these have a reputation which means it is not easy to resell and make back the money paid. Like cars, they lose value. It is the problem market because all the people ready to upgrade need to jump to the $4-5000 for it to be worth the change from a factory instrument. Starting Luthiers are the best to cover this market but it is a gamble for everybody involved, because nobody knows which Luthier guitar is gonna be a hit and go UP in value.
Once you get to the $5000 range and up, it is usually fine to resell used models which can market themselves thanks to label recognition. It might seem like a luxury, but it is really an investment because you know the instrument might be gaining value in the market. At least it was the case decade or 2 ago. Big names like Conde and Ramirez have great reputations for resale value….and the irony there is that there are so many of those on the market since the 1970s that they defy the logic spelled out earlier about cost of materials and time spent to construct….there should not be so many in other words. It implies some sort of “factory” building or mass producing going on. The story of Ramirez, who used apprentices is well known, he had a dozen or more guys working on the top models. Conde has historically pretended they only made B models in the factory (out sourced) and A models were made by hand in house and sent off for varnish (the French Polish can be done in house, but the toxic materials needed for synthetic varnish have to be done by specialists in a controlled environment). So if you ever come across a guitar with French Polish, it was a good chance it was made by “hand”.
RE: What is your string of choice an... (in reply to BarkellWH)
I use La Bella 427, not that anyone should care about my choice .
Why? Because Ricardo said so on another thread , and of course because I like them. I really like the sound they have on my guitar and love the easy tension. I also tried the 820 a couple of times on this guitar but for my weak hands felt a bit stiff. Other than the tension I really like a certain "radio" quality they have on the sound, that I cannot express actually in the correct words. It reminds me of something of what an old Ramirez sounded like, that a friend had and I tried almost 20 years ago (It was from the 1960 to 1970 I think) and they also remind me of PDL's older recordings. There is a familiar 'warmth' in La Bellas.
Another reason is that I can hear what I play better with the 427 (or the 820 that are similar) even in rooms with more reverb, like the local conservatoire I work that is an old building with large high ceiling rooms with lots of natural reverb. With cristal nylon trebles like Savarez or Luthier for some reason I tend to hear a more confused sound if I play harder.
To my humble experience with the guitar I have come to the conclusion, at least for now, that I like comfort because I feel better when playing and want to pick up the guitar more to study.
If I would like to speak of a disadvantage the 427 have is the bit of a weakness the G string has especially if I have to detune it, lets say for cueva del gato. But I do not mix treble sets for some reason to fix this. I have seen that 2001 flamenco or the 820 3rd string has more power and I could replace the 427 3rd but will see about that in the future. I do not want to forget to mention that I like the La Bella trebles more than for e.g. the Knobloch SN or Augustine classic (I mention these because they have similar treble material)
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What is your string of choice an... (in reply to AndresK)
quote:
So for me La Bella 427 it is.
Right, I always forget those are like the clear version of the 820’s. Shockingly great strings with a lovely flamenco snap. I first bought them by chance cuz they were cheap, but as soon as i put them on my Conde negra they really sparkled. Diamond in the rough. I should experiment with those again someday.
Posts: 11
Joined: Feb. 8 2021
From: Los Angeles, CA
RE: What is your string of choice an... (in reply to BarkellWH)
For normal tension, I go with Savarez Alliance, Hit Classic. For hard tension, I go for D'Addario EXPs--Manuel Valencia (from Jerez, and nephew of Terremoto Hijo) turned me onto those; although I think he switched over to Knobloch...like everyone else, lol.
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: What is your string of choice an... (in reply to trivium91)
D'addario EJ25B I like Luciano's idea of using a low tension treble E string to equalize the tension. Also use a carbon G string.
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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
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, and of course because I like them. I really like the sound they have on my guitar and love the easy tension. I also tried the 820 a couple of times on this guitar but for my weak hands felt a bit stiff. Other than the tension I really like a certain "radio" quality they have on the sound, that I cannot express actually in the correct words. It reminds me of something of what an old Ramirez sounded like, that a friend had and I tried almost 20 years ago (It was from the 1960 to 1970 I think) and they also remind me of PDL's older recordings. There is a familiar 'warmth' in La Bellas. 
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