Newbie Guitar Advice

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Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

Newbie Guitar Advice

OK, so I'm learning classical for now. The goal is eventually to play Flamenco.

For now I'm just absorbing everything about classical and flamenco guitar(s) as possible. I have two questions:

At what point should I be ready to start learning Flamenco technique? in other words, How much basic/classical fundementals would you suppose I need before I venture into this territory?

Secondly, what would be a short list of of beginning guitar brands/models for Flamenco? I would imagine it is best to develop a certain amount of technical skills, the beginning of a personal sense of style and the ability to actually appreciate (and hope make use of) a finer, more expensive guitar.
So, if you were looking at factory made guitars, that have consistent levels of quality and perhaps with a little growing room, what would the short list of brands/models be?

Keeping in mind that I'm in Canada, not Europe....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2006 4:59:27

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Newbie Guitar Advice (in reply to Exitao)

Hi Exitao!!

The holding of the hands and the guitar is very different in flamenco than in classic. I think with a very good flamenco technic you could play also good classic, but with very good classic technic, you wont be able to play good flamenco. So if you finally wanna learn flamenco, you should start with flamenco. All technics which are used in classic are present in flamenco technic. And flamenco has a couple of more technics in stock.
If you study too much classic and than move to flamenco it will be hard for you to get the feeling for flamenco.
I think the question is often answered in the forum, but I try to do it again with my thoughts.
Good beginner books are from Gerhard Graf Martinez and Juan Martin. The first half of the encuentro book of Gerardo Nunez has many good exercizes what you need to get all flamenco technics. The second half is for more experienced players.

Best flamenco bands/models.. well.
Hear much old Paco stuff and the stuff with camaron and tomatito. Dont hear Ottmar Liebert if you want to learn flamenco.

A guitar should allways be better than the player, otherwise it will hold your abilities down. You wont be able to get better technics with a guitar which is worser than you. But when you start at the beginning a better guitar will not cost so much.^^ Sorry I only know which guitars are good for me. I dont know much about medium guitars, only had 6-8 in the last years. I change my guitars very often. So you could start with a small price guitar and with growing playing technics you get better ones over the years. Many people do that. It works fine for me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2006 8:56:15

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Newbie Guitar Advice (in reply to Exitao)

Exitao,

I have been playing flamenco for about 5 years now (really seriously for about 3) but prior to that worked as a classical guitarist and have a BMus in performance. So here my perspective :)

There is nothing at all wrong with learning classical as a basis since, with proper classical training you will get ... great left hand technique, good reading skills, independance of right hand thumb and fingers (such as counter point) and other more elements more common in 'classical' techniques. Not to say that this can't come from flamenco but you will definitely get this from classical.

However, once you have these basics (and you do want to play flamenco) then elements such as free stroke, ima tremelo, conterpunctal (i.e. Bach lute suites) techniques and voice leading, free stroke scales don't come up that much in flamenco. At this point you will need develope your right hand to incorporate a solid picado (and, it's not just another name for classical rest stoke ... it is a different technique), 'thumb position' rest stroke (which is about 10 times louder than most thumb strokes in classical :) ) leading to alzapua, rasquedos (not the whimpy classical kind), etc, etc, etc.

Since flamenco pedegodgy is still less structured than classical, you might find it more productive to study the reams of material on basic skills from the classical world and then or concurrently develop your flamenco right hand. Of course, this is merely from a technical perspective, listening to and developing your musicality for whatever style you choose to persue is another matter.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2006 14:39:21

Niklas

Posts: 96
Joined: Aug. 27 2005
From: Finland (Living in Dublin)

RE: Newbie Guitar Advice (in reply to Exitao)

I jumped into flamenco guitar straight away and i have been playing for 2 years. I had never played an instrument properly before and got into flamenco throught my dancing hobby (which is "on hold" atm.).
I think if your ultimte goal is to play flamenco, there is no reason why you should not go straight to flamenco. The position of the right hand in very different from classical and it can be difficult to adjust to flamenco. My teacher is a former classical player and that can be seen from his right hand technique. And even getting that extra power (something i like to call "the umpf"

) to your playing you need in flamenco can be tricky.

Ok for me there have been some downsides. I cant read notes and my knowledge of theory is probably not as good of that of an classical player but that can be fixed with some determination. I also must say that having a former classical teacher has realy brought some kind of steadiness to my playing. I am more organised.... systematic.... and I try to focus more on the sound i make. Its only a good thing to be a perfectionist in playing guitar.

As for a guitar. I hear the Yamaha CG171SF (http://www.musiciansbuy.com/YAMAHA_CG171SF_FLAMENCO_W_FREE.html) is a very good deal. I have tried it a few times and i think it feels realy nice. I cant give you too many details beacuse my exprience with it is limited but i'm sure someone on this forum owns one.

Hope this helps...

Niklas

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2006 15:55:02

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Newbie Guitar Advice (in reply to Exitao)

Thank you caballeros. I am pleased to read your responses.

My first intent was to study classical for basic technique and theory. But, if you think that I can easily jump to my true purpose soon, I am happy.

Perhaps my next thread will be asking which Flamenco techniques I can add into my regular classical practises so that I can learn both in a complimentary fashion.

As to the guitar question, I've noticed in other threads that some people were pleased with Yamaha guitars. Would this be a safe bet for a beginner?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2006 21:45:24

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2006 4:18:02

Guest

RE: Newbie Guitar Advice (in reply to Exitao)

I will advice to start with flamenco thumb (incl. Pi and later alzapua) and also flamenco rasgueado.
These are the most important tecniques. Without them it´s not flamenco, wheras other tecniques are not as important and is closer to classical anway. (trem and arp.)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2006 7:28:19

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Newbie Guitar Advice (in reply to Exitao)

No I meant that he should hear old Paco and Tomatito stuff. Not the modern things at first. The area with Camaron is the best to learn the basics. Sabicas had his very unique style to play. He was great but no other known guitarrist played in his style. To learn his stuff is good for getting technic. But his compas style is too old as Nino Ricardos and Montoya.
If you wanna learn a lenguage you dont have to learn the prehistoric primitive times dialect which was only grunting at first. You can start with the vocabulary which is used now from a short time ago. And this is old Paco stuff.

In this way of seeing the things, the juan Martin book is too much old shool, too. But Im not the law, just some thoughts.

If you learn flamenco. Learn a good swinging compas at first!! Forget picado at first please. I allways see rookies with a hell fast picado but they play only two very ugly variations of a compas.. Flamenco is mainly strumming compas, than thumb as Anders said.

By the way, I started with Nino Ricard, than Sabicas, than Paco and Tomatito, than Django Reinhard, many workshops and years playing for dance. And I still have sooo much to learn.

But the most important part was and is the playing for dance. Without playing for dance, you have a lot more and harder work in front of you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2006 8:27:35

Gecko

Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico

RE: Newbie Guitar Advice (in reply to Exitao)

Welcome.

I faced a very similar situation. I played some steel string in my misspent youth, but that was many years ago and I'm retired now. About 2 years ago I became enamored with flamenco guitar and decided to try it. Bought a guitar, method books, music books etc. Well I soon found out that I was in over my head, so I looked for a flamenco guitar teacher but had no luck finding one. But I did find a decent classical guitar teacher. I have been taking classical lessons now for well over a year.

About 4 months ago I decided to try flamenco again and was amazed at how much easier it was for me due to the classical training. Many of the techniques, as you are going to find out, are quite similar. There are however other techniques in flamenco that you will have to learn. The rasqueo, in its many forms, the extensive use of the pulgar, the golpe are the ones I have encountered so far. In general so far I have found that in flamenco the left hand work is not as challenging as say it is in level 5-6 classical. On the other hand the right hand work is more challenging. However, if I had to put a grade level on my flamenco at this time I would say it was about level 2 and I would guess the left hand work will become more challenging as I advance.

There are many different methods and flamenco music books out there. The ones I am using are Gerhard Graf-Martinez and Juan Martin's, but there are others as well that the folks here like.

Since we are both in a similar situation please feel free to PM me and I will share some things I have learned here and other places about playing flamenco after having some classical training. I don't want to "re-hash" all that again, here.

I just sent you a PM regarding guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2006 10:33:31