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RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations?
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Mark2
Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
born in San Francisco and raised in the California psychedelic scene, Dude isn't old enough for that. I'm older than him and I mostly missed it too. Not that some folks didn't stop dropping acid/mushrooms, but that scene, the whole 60's free love thing, as it were, didn't extend to the 80's. I remembered the name of George Peacock's son and he isn't him either. Good thing, I really liked George(RIP). He owned a really small music store in Noe Valley in SF, full of dusty old violins and guitars. I couldn't understand how he stayed open. One day I was talking to a violin player about scoring some weed and he told me to go to Peacock Music and ask George for the "special" guitar strings. I did, and George gave me a funny look, until I mentioned the violin player. He then asked if I wanted the "standard special" strings or the "extra special" ones. :-) I became a regular customer, but could never find any music related items of interest, unless you consider the "strings" music related. He did have a student conde there, but I already had one.
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Date Dec. 30 2020 22:43:39
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to chester)
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Dude comes on and says he’s portugués, tells a person from France that they’re American, calls people who speak Spanish and/or live in Spain Anglo-American gate-keepers, and basically denigrates and insults anyone and everyone in sight who doesn’t agree with him, but calling him out on his BS is stalking? I don’t think so. I have had the sad experience of watching gifted friends virtually destroy their lives due to their suffering from bipolar disorder and have been trying to indirectly caution people that some of what has occurred here could be due to someone hitting the peak of a manic episode. As there’s no shame in that, I’ve been advocating compassion. But that doesn’t mean people have to humour someone while they fly off into some kind of insane rant. Part of helping is to gently push back with reality, IMO, something Ricardo has done, as well as pretty well everyone else involved who isn’t just sh*t disturbing. I’m sure you’re a fine person, too, but I think calling people who are trying to pick up the pieces and make sense out of a particularly unpleasant event a bunch of stalkers is a little off. I’ve tried more than once to lighten the mood on the thread with humour and it keeps getting pulled back into the mud. I don’t accept being called a stalker by a complete stranger, either, but have at it, it’s par for the course for this thread.
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Date Dec. 31 2020 23:17:15
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to RobF)
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quote:
Dude comes on and says he’s portugués, tells a person from France that they’re American, calls people who speak Spanish and/or live in Spain Anglo-American gate-keepers, and basically denigrates and insults anyone and everyone in sight who doesn’t agree with him, but calling him out on his BS is stalking? I don’t think so. I have had the sad experience of watching gifted friends virtually destroy their lives due to their suffering from bipolar disorder and have been trying to indirectly caution people that some of what has occurred here could be due to someone hitting the peak of a manic episode. As there’s no shame in that, I’ve been advocating compassion. But that doesn’t mean people have to humour someone while they fly off into some kind of insane rant. Part of helping is to gently push back with reality, IMO, something Ricardo has done, as well as pretty well everyone else involved who isn’t just sh*t disturbing. I’m sure you’re a fine person, too, but I think calling people who are trying to pick up the pieces and make sense out of a particularly unpleasant event a bunch of stalkers is a little off. Well said. fact checking someone's claims about themselves by googling them isn't "stalking" and trying to make sense of what is going on isn't "dog-piling". I'm not judgemental or stigmatising about mental health or substance abuse, and I've had someone close to me get into the rave scene in the 90's go completely off the rails and not come back. I had some alarm bells ringing way earlier in the thread before I started getting attacked for being "condescending" and "sensitive" and that episode just made it feel even more difficult and risky to address those concerns.... I feel really sad about this whole thread really, I don't know what is going on for other "internet strangers" but my gut feeling is that it's not good... it would be good if we could all look out for each other a bit more as well as looking after ourselves.
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Date Jan. 1 2021 11:58:57
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
That said I still get bored by people who play solos note for note. That's cool, that's your taste and your preference. I like how you say you get bored and not that the people doing it are boring/wrong/not flamenco/a-holes . I wonder how do you feel about people who play others' falsetas note for note but mix falsetas from different sources in performance to create a newly improvised "piece" every time? Or do you want them to tweak the falsetas so they are not note for note? Maybe you like personal takes on "traditional" falsetas or prefer people make their own "original" falsetas? I'm sure we could have an interesting chat about all this without needing to totally dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with us. quote:
Gate keepers cast me out. Lol 😂 I know you're kidding, but honestly, I have no idea what all this "gatekeeper" stuff is about. Back to playing solos note for note, when you see a programme like "Mi Primer Ole" and there's a kid playing Entre Dos Aguas or Tomate's Alegrias, or Gerardo's Verdiales or whatever I don't think anyone is really down on that are they? But there's a problem for anyone coming to flamenco later in life than their teens, for anyone coming to flamenco as an adult, that we need to go through some kind of process of learning the tradition before we can do our own thing with it, no? And already we have another big bunch of discussions over what constitutes "the tradition", and how to learn it, and how far we can stray from it and be original and creative and still be considered flamenco.... I think anyone who starts down the path of learning flamenco inevitably confronts these questions whether they think about them in a deliberate conceptual way or not. I think probably everyone has some kind of answer to these questions, whether it is in the form of words or just in what they play. I don't think my answers are the absolute right answers (for me or anyone else), and they change over time too. It's the kind of junk I think about when I'm waiting for a bus or on the loo.
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Date Jan. 1 2021 18:25:09
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to Piwin)
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Personally, I only know of 1 or 2 adult learners whose French is to me indistinguishable from a native. I'm sure there are more out there, but they're certainly not the majority. I don't know the reasons why, but this is an area where I do find that the majority of adult learners fare rather poorly (not just compared to children. just poorly in terms of what should be theoretically possible). In the US Foreign Service I was never assigned to a French language-speaking country and have never attempted to study or learn the language. Nevertheless, I have a marvelous book entitled "Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World," by the linguist Nicholas Ostler, from which I have drawn a quote by the French poet, journalist, and novelist Anatole France. Ostler suggests that the quote illustrates how the French are characteristically self-conscious and self-regarding with respect to the virtues inherent in their language. "La langue Francaise est una femme. Et cette femme est si belle, si fiere, si modeste, si hardie, si touchante, si voluptueuse, si chaste, si noble, si familiere, si folle, si sage, qu' on l'aime de toute son ame, et qu' on n'est jamais tente de lui etre infidele." "The French language is a woman. And that woman is so beautiful, so proud, so modest, to bold, so touching, so voluptuous, so chaste, so familiar, so mad, so wise, that one loves her with all one's soul, and is never tempted to be unfaithful to her." Anatole France, 1844-1924 Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 1 2021 20:40:56
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
Sorry, maybe you were paraphrasing (is it your position or someone else's?), but how and why is it a problem? Or are you referring to having less time available when you start as an adult? it's not much of a "position" - more of an idle musing... but yeah, mainly having less time available, so we are trying to do maybe a decade or two of absorbing all at once. Another version of the idea I was trying to articulate went like this: The flamenco artists we listen to pretty much all learnt as kids from a young age, and they absorbed the musical material of previous generations from family, teachers, records etc. and as young players in the early stage of a professional career they try to carve out their own version of what they have spent many hours learning and perfecting. I assume pretty much everyone here didn’t follow that path, but started learning flamenco later in life, so there’s a problem for us as adult learners in that we want to do our own thing and be creative, but without those many hours absorbing all that material the things we create will likely miss the mark we are aiming for.
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Date Jan. 1 2021 21:24:35
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estebanana
Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: What's up with this newfangled c... (in reply to mark indigo)
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I’m not interested in copies of guitar solos, which other people are free to play, I’m not against studying them. If I want to listen to a particular artists solo work, I’ll go right to the original artist. As for the falseta vs. learning a set piece, I don’t see it as a binary situation where it’s one or the other. It’s a mixture. It’s about internalizing structures and ways of putting chords and mechanisms together and that can by learned by taking a whole solo verbatim or by taking enough fragments from it to learn the original artists moves and intent. I see it as a process where synthesis of your own materials can be achieved just fine without learning whole set pieces, and also that internalizing, reorganizing inside yourself and then creating a new solo from that process is not only more difficult to master, but deeply satisfying to both the maker of new music and the listeners. My interest in solo work as a listener is to understand or feel how a player gathered material from a diverse ( or narrow) field of primary sources and created an individual dialectic with the materials. Gather, study, attain some mastery with material then synthesize it into an individual statement. I’m not so much interested in the gathering and mastering stages as stand alone processes. I’m interested in a witnessing a player take in material from past guitarists, musically meditating on it, then eventually coming out with their own version or new angle. That’s it, all I see is that interpretation of existing solos note for note isn’t as important to me in a flamenco context. If we were speaking about violin or piano concertos that’s a different genre with different sensibilities.
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Date Jan. 2 2021 3:05:54
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