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RE: Looking for good book on music theorie
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Mavi)
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quote:
Do you still disagree with me?
Well you have now thrown a bunch of Turkish music terms at me I am un familiar with, and offer no translations into notes nor time stamps even. You claim modulation is occurring. I can describe what I am hearing based on the guitar. First of all, the music is clearly “modal”, meaning static, not tonal, even though we don’t hear a “drone” instrument like Indian musicians use. But at the start of the melody, on G note, and then at 7 seconds, we hear a very low pitched G note. The melody notes move from A above the G start, down to D, natural notes. While my ear hears is it all as G mixolydian, you then hear a scale up GABC in the bass, and from then on till the darn end of the song ALL I hear is C Ionian with the G low note keep coming in. ZERO modulations of any kind. There is the one spot where the lower pitch instruments are hitting E and and they sing a B natural that Touches on A# at times in the up tempo 3/4 section at 1:40 or so. Maybe that is what you think of as a modulation? But it quickly drops back to the low G sound. In other words a G or C drone, or both together, doesn’t hurt that section or clash with it to my ear in context. And my musical ear hears it as still C major tonality with a bluesy note in there (A#). But if they want that to be considered a “modulation”, well, I think it’s obvious how different a relation that sounds like than a Fandango that moves from E phrygian to C major and back. It comes down to whether or not a C drone or G drone would destroy that little section in the same manner it would destroy a fandangos. Also interesting to note, if they want E tonality modulation, they avoid the F natural or sharp that would really color that sections stronger either way. Simply put, this example doesn’t go ANYWHERE harmonically, because it CAN’T.
The next two examples in your fusion post...example one is droning G phrygian for 8 minutes, the second has jazz piano...so are you just proving my point? When you use western temp instruments then of course you can use tonal harmony. My example of SAZ guy with guitar on the previous page shows more clearly the violent clash of worlds in that brief passage. Anyway, yes of course there are tons of cool world music fusions that have been going on. The problem I have been talking about is how we will describe the music theory behind some type of music that already has it’s own system in place, because their terminology usage might be coming from a “fusion” of concepts to start with.
So NONE of the examples CAN do what the Mozart thing was doing, was my main point, and we can therefore set aside those concepts when talking Flamenco theory. I mean we CAN set them aside, or we can approach them from THAT specific angle but mixing it up is leading to confusion about how to translate the music.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Oct. 13 2020 20:00:13
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Mavi
Posts: 24
Joined: Jun. 11 2015
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
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Thanks for listening the first example I gave in detail. Sorry for giving insufficient explanation, let me try to be more clear.
Maqam is the word for the way modes happen in Turkish music (similar to raga in Indian music I guess). It is not just a scale, the notes you use in a single maqam is not fixed. It has tonic and some other properties.
Notes in Turkish music are not attached to fixed pitches. A few of the note names are Dugah, Segah etc. After you fix a certain pitch for a certain note name, all the other note names correspond to a specific pitch relative to it. In many cases, a maqam (mode) is named after a certain characteristic note in it.
In this example, I claim, there are two maqams (mode) happening. Maqam Bayati (which has tonic note Dugah) and Maqam Segah (which has tonic note Segah). In the recording, the note Dugah has the pitch D and this makes the note Segah correspond to E flattened a little. Now let me give the time stamps:
(1) 0:00-0:14 : maqam Bayati. The note coming at 0:12 and lasting around two seconds (the pitch D) is note Dugah. The phrasing, notes used in general and the stay at note Dugah for that amount of time tells me this is maqam (mode) Bayati. Also, this piece is a part of a larger piece which has Bayati in its name.
(2) 0:14-0:27: maqam Segah. The note we hear at 0:25 is Segah (pitch E flattened a little), which is the tonic of maqam Segah. It lasts for a second or so then you get Segah-Chahargah-Neva (approximately E-F-G) and turn back to phrase (1).
Then phrases (1) and (2) repeated a few times until 1:23, then part (3) starts and lasts till the end. It is maqam (mode) Segah from that point on. The tonic is note Segah (pitch E flattened a little), is not the pitch C (which would be note Rast, and that would be another maqam).
I hope it clears a little.
The other examples I gave was not about modulation at all, they were just examples of using some western music based ideas without sacrificing the none-tempered (some says microtonal) notes in eastern musical styles, which I found very rare to happen in a tasteful manner. Also the problem you mentioned with piano and the saz example (clash between the eastern notes and equal tempered notes) seems to me handled nicely in the second example I gave.
I never said modal way is the correct or better way to view flamenco. The harmonic explanation you gave seems very good to me. I was just trying to see if I was misinterpreting how tonic may possibly change in modal (in particular Turkish) music.
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Date Oct. 13 2020 23:53:30
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Mavi)
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quote:
(1) 0:00-0:14 : maqam Bayati. The note coming at 0:12 and lasting around two seconds (the pitch D) is note Dugah. The phrasing, notes used in general and the stay at note Dugah for that amount of time tells me this is maqam (mode) Bayati. Also, this piece is a part of a larger piece which has Bayati in its name.
Ok, I listened again with headphones. The prominent G bass note might be an artifact of the resonance of one of the instruments coupled with percussion? Or perhaps the percussion instrument itself is tuned to G (third fret 6th string of the guitar is what keeps ringing out). So I accept that the intro might start in whatever “key” tonic you choose to define, since there is no clear drone and the song is just a melody doubled by the instruments. The meter is clearly in 7, though I don’t know the exact feel, so I quickly sketched the notes as 3+2+2 or 7/8 meter. I admit that might be wrong, and could affect the way I am hearing the melody emphasis. You can look at my sketch for the exact notes of the whole song.
So the opening melody starts on G and really emphasizes it by going from G-A-G, down to D, then back up to G from D. Since there are no B notes (later we see them variable B or Bb), my ear gravitates to G, NOT D in this melody. Hanging on that G so often actually robs the D note from it’s strength as a modal tonic. Emphasizing the note A for example instead would produce that affect. But what do I know, emphasizing that G might be part of your “bayati” rules or whatever.
The next line feels more like “D” by itself As it STARTS on D and ends on D. Maybe that is the “answer” to the first line in G? Regardless, the D resolution is NOT on the down beat (unless the song doesn’t start on the down beat but rather starts on a pick up...but then it’s still weird earlier and later on) and this country western alegrias pick up notes phrase G-A-B-C, going into the next sung phrase on C-C-B-C....I mean there is no other interpretation for me other than C Ionian in context. It is so prominent in my ear it is hard to not look back at the intro as anything other than the musical set up for this section. The Bb sneaks in, like I said sort of bluesy sliding style, so I am hearing this modal C key (not E as in phrygian as you implied).
quote:
(2) 0:14-0:27: maqam Segah. The note we hear at 0:25 is Segah (pitch E flattened a little), which is the tonic of maqam Segah. It lasts for a second or so then you get Segah-Chahargah-Neva (approximately E-F-G) and turn back to phrase (1).
So after that clear C melody going A-B-C-Bb-A-G two times, it does “resolve” to E note, then recap with E-F-G, such that G is repeated and reemphasized as it was in the first line. I am still hearing the E as the THIRD interval above C, because of how strong C was emphasized a moment before. So what you are calling D (dorian or aeolian type equivalent) “modulating” to E (natural phrygian equivalent), I am actually hearing it all as C Ionian from the start. The Bb would be giving the mixolydian equivalent type sound.
quote:
Then phrases (1) and (2) repeated a few times until 1:23, then part (3) starts and lasts till the end. It is maqam (mode) Segah from that point on. The tonic is note Segah (pitch E flattened a little), is not the pitch C (which would be note Rast, and that would be another maqam).
Yes all “8 bars” as I sketched it repeat, 4 phrases. The final time the hold the E yes. BUT!!!!!! When the meter changes to 3/4, right on the down beat, they SING and PLAY a C note...”Rast” as you call it. Melody goes C-E-E/EEE/EE etc....however, somebody is playing, and it might even be some one singing, another C note on the down beat of the second and third bars as well. I totally get that the melody is emphasizing the E note, but it is grounded on a C bass note. All 8 bars and repeat until the second ending I keep hearing them play the low C note. Now the first time they do the second ending thing the melody goes up to B but from C, a wide skip above E. (E C BA-B), and there is someone holding out the E note under it. Yes it’s a drone E sound for that whole section even when it resolves to G the first time. But the second time it resolves to G I hear that intrusive G bass note come in again. In my sketch the turn around is emphasizing G via C-Bb-A-G... the same type of thing that happed in the 7 beat section. And this melody I have as the Coda in my sketch, jumps to the Conclusion of the C major melody and recaps.
Now the song repeats the whole 3/4 part a couple times more. The other times, whoever did that E drone the first time abandons it and it TOTALLY changes the dark color of that section on the other passes. It’s that G bass again that you hear under that section.
So that’s how I hear it. When a drone is used, there is no ambiguity for any listener IMO. To my ear, this piece functions as a bit of tension pulling from G territory to C ionian resolved territory. But I can flip it by adding in my own drone as per your suggestion. But the D is killed by that G note, and the E is killed by the C note. Only that one spot where the melody is B does the E drone work IMO.
 Attachment (1)
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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Date Oct. 14 2020 4:05:49
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Mavi
Posts: 24
Joined: Jun. 11 2015
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
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I want to give more details, but I don't want to hijack the topic, but let me do it anyway, the post can be deleted if it is considered too off topic.
The rhythmic pattern changes at 1:27. Until that point, it has 14 beats per bar, 7+7, the structure is:
dum tek ka du me tek ka + dume dum tek tek ka tek ka
After that point it has 6 beats per bar: dum tek ka dume tek ka (check the similarity with the first seven beats above, the beats 4 and 5 merged to a single beat)
Maqams in Turkish music mostly have one of the three tonics: Rast (pitch C here), Dugah (D) and Segah (E comma flat, let me show it by Ed). That comma flat changes things substantially, so maqam Segah (starting Ed, F) doesn't have the phyrigian feeling coming out of E F at all. Also, the maqams with tonic Segah (Ed) has the most ambigous feeling of tonic, but once you get used it, it is a very nice feeling. Segah is one of the oldest maqams, and one of the very central ones. In Turkey, since several hundred years, the evening call to prayer is sung in this maqam if I know correctly. The note Rast (C) comes up a lot in the maqam Segah, and it may create the feeling that it is the tonic, but it only supports the note (Ed) Segah. Also, the note D sharp is normally used a lot in Segah pieces to support to the tonic Ed, here we may not hear it a lot, but the piece would not lose its main character (for my ears, which used to a lot other maqam Segah pieces) if you change all those C - Ed- Ed with D sharp - Ed - Ed's.
About the note G, it is the strong note of both maqams (Bayati & Segah), which means that it is the most important/visited/rested note after the tonic and it is probably visited more than tonic. So, it is a natural point to modulate from a maqam to another one.
There are other examples where the maqam changes while the tonic stays same, which is more common and more dramatic since you are changing the notes used, but the point I was trying to understand is about the tonic change in modal music.
Here is the link for the sheet music of the piece: http://neyzen.com/nota_arsivi/01_ilahiler/082_segah/semi_ruhuna_cismimi_pervane_dusurdum.pdf (but the pitch equivalences are different here, dugah was corresponding to D in the recording, but in sheet music we generally put it to A (La), so Segah becomes (Bd) and Rast (C in the recording) becomes G, and the strong note (G in the recording) is D now )
Anyway, I may be completely wrong. Thanks a lot for your answer, it gave me many things to think about.
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Date Oct. 14 2020 4:57:59
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Mavi)
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quote:
I want to give more details, but I don't want to hijack the topic, but let me do it anyway, the post can be deleted if it is considered too off topic.
Personally I feel it is quite relevant to discuss this, plus people get to watch me learn something rather than spout off the same old diatribe I always do.
So rhythm first. I am glad I was correct about the down beat. I did consider (because the 7 wasn’t super clear and it was cuadrao or square groups of 2 always) combining into 14, but having lived with some Turks they never mentioned a 14 beat, so my guess was close. Same for the 3/4 I sketched I knew it was cuadrao which opens the door to both 6 and 12 beat structures. 6/4 not really because of the prominent accent on count 4 out of 6, so 6/8 is cool with me...it’s just slower than I normally think of 6/8. So seems my sketch and your score align pretty well in this regard.
Makams
Ok, so I looked it up and started learning about Turkish Makam from the brief wiki descritption.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_makam
So referring to that and comparing your score to mine, I will from now on speak in the “transposed from my C key to his G key” terms for clarity.
1. Most important relevant piece of info I want to put out is that the Turkish modal system of notes are dealing with 53(!) notes per octave. Less than the ancient Chinese (60) but significantly more than Greeks (24) or Indians (22). This is significant because it means the system is further limited in doing tonal type modulations because they really want to differentiate between the various “notes between the notes” with, as many as 9 varieties in some cases between a whole step! (In rock guitar, we know about 1/4 tones, so we might accept target bending 4 different pitches between C-D...but 9???lol). So understanding which note is TONIC is super important if you are gonna name any one of those 53 not so obvious notes.
2. Ok, pretending the above doesn’t matter and trying to relate their scales or modes to western concepts we first see they have everything based on combinations of pentachords and tetra chords. A western equivalent CONCEPT is the “melodic minor” scale which would be like say A B C D E F# G#, is a result of combing the “aeolian pentachord” ABCDE with the Ionian “tetra achord” ABC#D....but the pentachord is transposed such that it begins on the 5th degree (EF#G#A). Finally the important “dominant” note is identified, which sometimes is the 5th but can ALSO BE THE 4th, because it splits or overlaps the pentachord and the tetrachord in the middle ish, and last thing is the leading tone. So that means, in A melodic minor, we can think of the E note is an important note, and the G# is important. Finally, each “mode” or Makam will allow for development rules above or below tonic. The equivalent concept here is the “rule” that the melodic minor will DECEND from tonic as a natural minor scale (AGFE). Now we know from tonal rules of western music the reason for that change is the tension and release factor of V-I in minor, where you sharps are pulling and once the minor i is established, you wold descend in the natural scale as a “resolution” of sorts. I can’t help but think the Turkish rules of “development” are serving a similar aural function of tension and release? But that’s my own idea.
3. Despite the 53 tones per octave options, and all the fun implications of the above (they use 6 different tetrachords and 6 pentachords), they end up most of the time only using A handful of makams! Well, I guess that’s better than Chinese that mainly only use major or minor pentatonics with their 60 note system!  . However one category names the “compound Makam” which can have hundreds of variants. So on the wiki page they only describe a couple of the main makams. I decided then to compare our score with those and see which fits the best.
So the major key Makam or C ionian seems to have a bad rep, and no accidentals. So skip that. Next is Buselik makam. This is like A natural minor but they use the G# sometimes, so harmonic minor, and a decending variant with F# and 1/4 E note, so an A dorian type sound. Interesting but not in our example.
The the one you call Bayati they call Ussak...so it’s like A natural minor but with a B note slightly flat. In deed the “dominant” note is the D that splits the two chords, so our song would be starting on the dominant and desending to tonic using the tetra chord mainly. (Could NOT find a pentachord equivalent of the E note, or ABCDE where both B and E are slightly flat as the key signature of your score indicates. However a normal E note version does exist as a pentachord, but not used specifically in THIS makam I guess?). The development allows the use of the Rast pentachord (DEF#G) which is exactly the walk up to G major I was hearing. So all that follows the correct “rules” for Ussak based on A note tonic.
But the next section takes on the RAST makam development...That being the Rast tetra ascending from dominant (DEF#G) but descending Buselik tetra (GFED), assuming that E is not half flat. (My ear can’t tell sorry, but your score shows this). I have pointed out this move throughout the piece. However your score is in error for not pointing this exact thing out in the first 14/8 section. It is CLEARLY doing this. Perhaps the writer of the score felt it was not important or an embellishment? But by NOT including the change of note there, F#->F natural, then it very much looks still like Ussak.
The 6/8 section DOES correctly notate the Rast development I pointed out above when it occurs. The E# awesome note is not accounted for in any of the tetra or penta chords they show, so I assume it is some cool out note permitted? The mode you describe as based on the semi flat B note, I can’t find here...infact I don’t even see ANY pentachord nor tetra chord ever to be based on a relatively flattened nor raised note...which makes sense actually. Now I am sorry I am not going to dig much further than this wiki page, but I admit that in the family of compound makams anything might be going on.
But for everybody following, I would take that score in G major key signature, and detune your B string a hair such that the string rings out in a G chord with less violence than normal. Now read the score and play the melody on the 3rd and 4th strings, EXCEPT, whenever you see a B note, play that open string. You can also hear when doing this if you just play around with it, how the “phrygian” sound is affected if you pretend your B string is tonic and only play that open version as you fiddle with the other 6 notes of the scale. Fun stuff.
EDIT:one thing I forgot to add about your score. Please note that both the ussak based on A and the Rast based on G, share the SAME “dominant” note which is D. Further both of these makams have a similar concept in the development, that being, the variable F or F# note depending. This leads us straight to ambiguity in this piece a person like me will be trapped by in this piece at a superficial glance. One thing I would do as the transcriber to eliminate this ambiguity on paper for a guy like me, is to use the correct key signature. By that I mean if the Makam is meant to be A ussak, I would use zero sharps or flats (not talking about the semi flat B note, that’s of course fine), so that in my development section the F# appears as an accidental to the fundamental construction. Conversely if wanted to express Rast based on G as the tonic or fundamental construction, then I would include the F# in the key signature and use F natural when it occurs as the accidental to illustrate what is the development section. In this case, our score used F# expressly and therefore I am getting more push towards the G Rast than the A ussak. Hope you get my drift.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Oct. 14 2020 17:38:33
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Let me know if you come across modes or makams based on the altered notes (such as are example of B slightly flat)
What Mavi calls "Segah" is called "Sikah" in Arabic maqam, as far as I can tell. (BTW seems clearly to stem from the same original word, but happened to fossilize differently when it was finally written down at some randon times later on, and perhaps after a series of 'broken telephone'-type oral reproductions)
In Arabic maqams are scales (and rules), and they are always made of smaller building blocks (equivalent concept to the tetrachords and pentachords building up a Turkish makam) called 'jins' (that's singular; plural is 'ajnas').
However, jins can be 3- 4- and 5-notes, not just 4- and 5-.
And indeed, looking at the Sikah jins, a 3-note jins, it starts on what Mavi notated as Ed, meaning E and the mirror image of 'b', which means slightly flat (as opposed to normal 'b' which would be half-tone flat as in western music notation). In Arabic notation they seem to write this as a 'b' with a forward slash across its stem, meaning flattening by a quarter-tone(*). ( https://www.w3.org/2019/03/smufl13/tables/arabic-accidentals.html )
Sikah jins: http://www.maqamworld.com/en/jins/sikah.php
This Sikah jins is the first jins in Maqam Sikah, Maqam Huzam, Maqam ‘Iraq, and Maqam Bastanikar. It has a 'ghammaz' of G, which seems to be equivalent to saying in Turkish the strong note is G (which corresponds below to Mavi talking about, when transposed, of Turkish Segah of Bd with strong tone of D).
(*) I can't tell if the Turkish Ed specifically in Segah makam is supposed to be about a quarter tone flat or just a Turkish "koma" flat. Since the Turkish system is of 53 tones within an octave - 54 with the repeated tone an octave above - it has 9 "komas" per whole tone (6 whole tones in an octave, so 9*6 = 54), or 4.5 "komas" per equally-tempered semitone. (Yikes!!)
So an Arabic quarter tone is 2.25 Turkish komas (commas). Therefore Ed Turkish in Segah should mean about 2 Turkish commas flatter than E to be approximately the same as the Arabic first note in the Sikah jins.
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Konstantin
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Date Oct. 14 2020 19:50:08
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Mavi
Posts: 24
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
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I am happy if you feel I am contributing. The reason why you didn't hear about 14 thing from the Turkish people you have seen maybe because their understanding of Turkish music is based on folk music, where such complex rhythms does not happen at all or happens very rarely.
The way to analyze Turkish music through pentachords-tetrachords in the way described in the wiki article, as far as I know, is a recent thing (after 1900), and many people complain about it. It fails considerably, for example, for maqam Segah and some other fundamental maqams. Maqam Segah has tonic Bd and its strong note is D, which doesn't fit with pentachord/tetrachord stuff. Similar thing happens with maqam Saba (another very fundamental maqam). That theory has many other problems in terms of its content and also its motivation. It ignored the way how musicians were understanding the music for past several hundred years and tried to put a new theory which (probably superficially) resembles more to its western classical counterpart, which reminds me the discussions Ricardo having with people.
In the example I gave, I have no doubts about the Segah part, I am sure it is Segah (with tonic Bd) and not Rast (with tonic G). A Rast piece would not stay that long on Bd and it would spend more time on the lower register. I thought my claim about Bayati part would be more problematic. Ussak and Bayati are related but different maqams, an Uşşak piece would emphasize the lower register more.
Here is a quotation from wiki page for maqam Segah which I found just now: "Sigah features a half-flat tonic and a half-flat fifth scale degree; as such, it has an unstable sound that tends to favor its own third degree." Ricardo, I think this is about what you are asking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigah
There are hundreds of maqams they say, I know around twenty of them used a lot traditionally. Sixty notes sounds too much to me, in an octave there should be around 20, all others are octaves, and for all the notes there, I can think a fundamental maqams using that note.
I don't trust the modern Turkish music theory explanations because of the reasons I gave, and base my understanding on music I know, play and listen. About maqam vs makam thing, I didn't know there was a difference, we say makam in Turkish and I was thinking people say maqam in English. Indian/Arabic/Turkish/Persian music all share elements but have their special twists, and I know Turkish one much more intimately.
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Date Oct. 14 2020 20:10:13
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Mavi)
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quote:
To be more precise, the note segah is not half flat, it is slightly flat compared to its well tempered version. I am denoting it with (Bd) here as we were assuming Rast is (G). But aren't non-tempered versions supposed to be slightly flatter than the tempered ones (or is it sharper)?
Apologies for not digging in to distinguish my 1/9th, 4/9th, 8/9ths etc inbetween notes. I already saw the chart and understand how ‘flat” our B note is. Moving past that concept, yes I get it, my confusion is regarding the “Segah” fundamental construction. It is not listed as an option on the wiki page by name, and further, I don’t really see ANY of the acceptable tetrachords nor pentachords that would allow it to be constructed.
Of course I can “see” it as being a construction ON the 2nd degree of the Ussak or the 3rd degree of the Rast....but that means that “segah” is NOT a Makam in the same sense, it is instead a “mode” of the Rast or Ussak respectively. Get what I am saying? Meaning, changing the tonic TO segah has to be RELATIVE to some other thing that you started with.
So I would ask, how do I “play” or compose makam segah based on the PITCH of our tune (B a little flat, however as the recording sounds, E sort of flat). Say I have a Saz and I just put strings on but didn’t tune it, yet. What do I do first to achieve my goal? And what tetrachord and pentachords do I use as a basis once I have tuned correctly?
My understanding at present is to start with KABA charga (C note, but transposed to F to match the recording), and tune my instrument based on that math, detune my “B” note (E on recording) and then once it is all nice and tuned, jump on the B note. But what are my tetra and pentachords?
Just to add an aside, your solo singer guy is making a clear modal tonic vs the other song I analyzed where it’s not as clear cuz of the melody, plus, the singers are not perfectly intonating in unison. Sounds like my old rock chorus pedal at work.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Oct. 14 2020 23:29:07
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Mavi
Posts: 24
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Of course I can “see” it as being a construction ON the 2nd degree of the Ussak or the 3rd degree of the Rast....but that means that “segah” is NOT a Makam in the same sense, it is instead a “mode” of the Rast or Ussak respectively. Get what I am saying? Meaning, changing the tonic TO segah has to be RELATIVE to some other thing that you started with.
This may be the correct interpretation, in the sense people could not have arrived Segah without inventing Rast first. But, it is more than a mode, for example we don't use/emphasize the leading note to Segah when we play Rast, and there are other properties which makes a certain thing a maqam.
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My understanding at present is to start with KABA charga (C note, but transposed to F to match the recording), and tune my instrument based on that math, detune my “B” note (E on recording) and then once it is all nice and tuned, jump on the B note. But what are my tetra and pentachords?
I would take Rast (G note, but transposed to C in the recording) or Dugah (A note) as the beginning point (that chargah mode is just a theoretical one - there is no composition in it for example - again an objection point to that theory). Going through mathematical intervals, you wouldn't be able to get Buselik (B) but get something flatter than it: Segah (Bd). Taking Rast (G) as tonic and the Evic (approximately F#) as your leading tone, you would get a seven note scale which is very close to major, which is the basic scale of maqam Rast. In that sense, Rast may be the mother of many other maqams, but I am just speculating here.
I am not saying all maqams are in some sense a mode of Rast, there are other ones which does not fit into Rast (most famous one being Hicaz, which starts approximately A - Bb - C#)
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Date Oct. 15 2020 0:29:10
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Mavi)
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quote:
I would take Rast (G note, but transposed to C in the recording) or Dugah (A note) as the beginning point (that chargah mode is just a theoretical one - there is no composition in it for example - again an objection point to that theory). Going through mathematical intervals, you wouldn't be able to get Buselik (B) but get something flatter than it: Segah (Bd). Taking Rast (G) as tonic and the Evic (approximately F#) as your leading tone, you would get a seven note scale which is very close to major, which is the basic scale of maqam Rast. In that sense, Rast may be the mother of many other maqams, but I am just speculating here.
Got it, that makes sense. Just some thoughts as I think aloud about this system and it’s terminology, sorry if it’s rambling. I realize they call that A minor mixed mode “buselik makam” because of the buselik tetra chord and Buselik penta chord. But they call those two “buselik” specifically because they make use of the “buselik” NOTE....ie, the true B note. And to those who named it, THAT is the important distinction to be made despite the fact the “Dugah” note is the ACTUAL tonic. (And I get now why we don’t need C to be tuning basis for segah, as Dugah the note A is enough of a reference). The other Dugah based mode uses Segah INSTEAD of buselik ...so they rightly call it “Ussak makam” because they call the tetra and pentachords “ussak”....however... they should have called it “segah” tetra chord. If they had done so, it would next make total sense why the “segah makam” uses that note as tonic, despite ussak using Dugah as tonic. I am vaguely curious if the kurdi penta+kurdi tetrachords, positioned starting on BUSELIK as tonic note (creating B locrian equivalent) is of similar relative importance to “buselik makam”, with it’s own name like “kurdi makam (I am making that up)”, as the “segah makam” might be relative to the Ussak? If it is not that simple, then it’s terminology overload for me LOL!
Rast makes most sense to me...penta tetra plus makam all based on Rast note, and they call it that. Only distinction is when the F natural comes in (you never addressed my points about your score in this regard). However....I am not yet clear why it is all based on Rast note (conceptually I mean), when you can achieve the same sound basing your scale on C (chargah penta and tetrachords) and using the KABA dik hisar (Ed) instead of husani ashiran (E normal)? There must be some weird historical or physical basis for avoiding this simplification. Something where they want Rast to be sounded HIGHER pitch than some note under it? Weird since they allow for transposition (it’s not about vocal range in other words since they could jump to the next octave of chargah and simplify the whole musical concept of Rast makam). It follows, of course why must “segah” be used (relative to Rast penta/tetra) and not “Dik hisar” as a tonic (relative to Chargah penta/tetra) to achieve the exact same sound? In flamenco we have por medio or Arriba distinct because of the guitar itself, so I am looking, I guess, for a similar constraint.
Last thing on the tuning stuff. In buselik makam, the harmonic minor variant uses the hijazz tetra chord...but the F note is read to be 1/9 sharper than the buselik tetra chord F (in other words, the gap between F and G# is slightly decreased relative to a gap between F and G). I am curious how important is that distinction really when playing Buselik makam? I guess it must be a big deal. Cuz if it’s NOT important in that context, it’s curious why they make such a big deal about that 1/9 pitch distinction between the two tetra/penta chords Ussak and Buselik such that the are funtamental distinct simple makams?
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Oct. 15 2020 6:08:54
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Mavi
Posts: 24
Joined: Jun. 11 2015
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
The other Dugah based mode uses Segah INSTEAD of buselik ...so they rightly call it “Ussak makam” because they call the tetra and pentachords “ussak”....however... they should have called it “segah” tetra chord. If they had done so, it would next make total sense why the “segah makam” uses that note as tonic, despite ussak using Dugah as tonic. I am vaguely curious if the kurdi penta+kurdi tetrachords, positioned starting on BUSELIK as tonic note (creating B locrian equivalent) is of similar relative importance to “buselik makam”, with it’s own name like “kurdi makam (I am making that up)”, as the “segah makam” might be relative to the Ussak? If it is not that simple, then it’s terminology overload for me LOL!
There is a note which is sometimes called ussak note, which is played a few commas flatter than note segah. So when you play makam Ussak and Bayati (but especially Ussak), you flatten note segah a little. So for this reason, it is better I think to think maqam Segah as a mode of Rast rather than Ussak.
I don't know if there is a maqam similar to locrian mode, I have to check that further. By the way there is another mode which is almost like G minor, which is called Nihavend. I don't know that much about Buselik maqam, because it is not as frequently played as the more fundamental maqams.
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Rast makes most sense to me...penta tetra plus makam all based on Rast note, and they call it that. Only distinction is when the F natural comes in (you never addressed my points about your score in this regard). However....I am not yet clear why it is all based on Rast note (conceptually I mean), when you can achieve the same sound basing your scale on C (chargah penta and tetrachords) and using the KABA dik hisar (Ed) instead of husani ashiran (E normal)?
In pieces (almost in all maqams), you use F and F# switching all the time, generally it is F# when the phrase is ascending and F when the phrase is descending. There can also be changes for emphasizing certain notes. So the initial scale mentioned for a maqam does not fix which notes are going to be used (inside the maqam, without modulating), the case of F and F# being more frequent.
Another reason why I think Rast is the most basic note is this: Two main instruments of Turkish music are Ney and Tanbur: Ney is an end-blown flute (according to wiki) and Tanbur is more like saz, but with much more frets. When you close all the holes of Ney and play it in the first degree (the lowest note possible), the note you get is kaba rast (an octave down from rast), the second degree (midrange) all holes closed gives you the note rast. On tanbur, the melodic string played open gives you Yegah (a fourth down rast). You may be right, but I don't see why taking note chargah would simplify things. By the way, to be able to play note buselik on ney, you have to use a weird fingering, but the note segah is just there. What pitch rast corresponds to doesn't matter in practice that much, there are more than 10 sizes of Ney for example, and the same fingering (and air pressure) gives you to rast, so you have a good freedom of adjusting to pitch corresponding to rast.
About this hicaz pentachord in buselik and F - G# interval, let me talk about maqam hicaz itself and Bb-C# thing there, as I am more familiar with maqam hicaz, which is a much more important maqam. Yes, the interval is smaller than Bb-C# and this is very important, Bb-C# is much darker than its version in Hicaz (which is Dik Kurdi - Nim Hicaz) where Bb is sharpened at least 1 comma. This darker version is used when guitar players (or even saz players) try to play maqam Hicaz, but someone whose ear is used to Maqam Hicaz in Turkish classical music would recognize the difference and get disturbed. There are a lot of other things going on maqam Hicaz, for example the note buselik (B) is used (replacing the one of the characteristic notes Bb) a lot in Hicaz pieces, and change between F-F# is very frequent. So this middle eastern sounding Hicaz cliches, I found very similar to Spanish sounding phyrigian things.
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Date Oct. 15 2020 14:53:08
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Mavi)
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quote:
The way to analyze Turkish music through pentachords-tetrachords in the way described in the wiki article, as far as I know, is a recent thing (after 1900), and many people complain about it. It fails considerably, for example, for maqam Segah and some other fundamental maqams. Maqam Segah has tonic Bd and its strong note is D, which doesn't fit with pentachord/tetrachord stuff.
Damn, I TOTALLY missed this post the other day after kitarist hit us with the Arabic stuff. I am here still dealing with these damn tetra chords junk. I know something was missing. Sorry I kept referring to it. In my mind, I was understanding that those were the only 6 building blocks of ALL the usable modes/makams. So you are saying they are not the basis and FAIL out right? I guess they were trying to show evolution from Greece similar to Sanlucar was doing to explain phrygian flamenco cadence.
The thing you linked to, Persian equivalent of segah certainly points out that it “derives” from Rast, both modally and by name...segah meaning third place as in the third degree of RAST. For me that changes things a lot. It means that “makams” are not “Modes” in the way I think of modal music. A drone on “Rast” wouldn’t work if you wanted to do the “segah” and that is why you brought it up as “modulation”. In this sense it is indeed sort of like fandangos, minus the tonal functions. The Rast section being the copla in major, then it moves to the phrygian interludes that are the “segah” equivalent.
This doesn’t change the way my ear hears that other piece thanks to the Rast note being emphasized on the down beat, but it does END on the segah so I will of course take your word on it.
It is still odd to me that somebody discovered this popular “Rast” makam, and called it such, because of the G note or 5th degree. Why didn’t they first find this thing on the C note? Why not first invent an altered version of chargah? There must be some evolution that lead to that discovery.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Oct. 16 2020 5:52:01
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Mavi
Posts: 24
Joined: Jun. 11 2015
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
It is still odd to me that somebody discovered this popular “Rast” makam, and called it such, because of the G note or 5th degree. Why didn’t they first find this thing on the C note? Why not first invent an altered version of chargah? There must be some evolution that lead to that discovery.
The correspondence between G (or 5th) and Rast seems completely arbitrary to me. What would go wrong if we identified Rast with C instead?
I don't know if this pentachord/tetrachord stuff is completely wrong, but the version used in Turkey today is a very recent thing, developed in very turbulent times (foundation of Turkish Republic, Westernization etc).
I found this article about classical treatises of maqam and Turkish music (they are called Edvar):
http://www.turkishmusicportal.org/en/types-of-turkish-music/turkish-classical-music-kitab-i-edvar
Some quotations from this link may explain the motivation behind the strong desire to get rid of the classical theory completely:
"The edvar includes the classification and description of makam-s (mode), usul-s (rhythmic cycle), tunings of the instruments, and the relationship among physiology, makam-s and stars and planets."
"the importance of the word or phenomenon "musiki" is explained through legends. One famous example is the legend about Safiyüddin Urmevi and the camel. During the time of Safiyyüddin, the ulema or scholars of the city of Bagdat prohibited the practice of (the science of) music. When Safiyyüddin heard about this he went to the Caliph and asked for permission to demonstrate the importance of this science. The Caliph then asked how this demonstration could be undertaken. Safiyyüddin first instructed that they bring a camel and keep it away from water for forty days, and then at the end they should offer the camel water in the presence of music and see which the camel would then prefer. And if the camel prefers water over music then music is not a science of vital importance. When the time came for the test, they tied a rock to the camel's feet, brought water in a silver cup, and the people of Bagdad came to watch the camel with curious eyes. Safiyyüddin started singing a Nevbet-i müretteb in the makam of Zirgüle, as they untied the camel's feet. The thirsty camel, instead of moving towards the water, stood still and turned his head over to the passionately singing Sheyh Safiyyüddin, with tears in his eyes. This test was performed three times in a row and every time the result was the same. And so, that day it was understood that music was vital to humanity as the appreciation for it grew day after day."
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Date Oct. 16 2020 9:07:53
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Mavi)
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13th century camel tastes allowed us to keep music? When was that song you showed the score of in 14/8 actually coming from? Is that very old as well?
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According to the ancients, the names of the pitches came from their positions based on a numerical order. Number 1 was called Yekgâh, number 2 Dügâh, number 3 Segâh, number 4 Çargâh, number 5 Pençgâh, number 6 Sesgâh number 7 Hestgâh, number 8 Heftgâh. These names are all in Persian.
When Kirsehirli talks about the tuning of Çeng he gives the tuning according to the makam of Rast. The pitches in Rast makam are given as follows; Rast, Dügah, Segah, Çargâh, Pencgâh, Hüseyni, Hisar, Gerdaniye, Muhayyer. As you can see from Kirsehirli on, the first pitch which was previously called Yekgah was then on named as Rast. Another scholar in 15th century, Hizir bin Abdullah also in his theory book, 'Kitab-ül Edvar' shows Rast instead of Yekgâh. He also used Hüseyni, Hisar and Gerdaniye for the 6th, 7th and the 8th degrees of the makam scale degrees of Rast. Over time Pencgah became Neva and Hisar became Evc.
So: G A B(1/9 flat) C D E F# G A seems to have been so named because somebody desired to align the B(1/9 flat) and C relationship relative to tonic intact, at least as the names of the notes are concerned. Yegah now corresponds to D, a fifth below Rast, where it used to be the ancient name of tonic? One thing I was a little confused about is the F#. When I was going off of the penta and tetra chord logic, the Rast wiki explaination said it was constructed of Rast penta and Rast tetra... meaning G A Bd C D+ D E F## (or Gd, the SAME half flat thing) which would correspond to the “dik mahur”, and finally G. Also, why name the scale out to 9 notes?
Despite that explanation of how Rast makam is constructed, everybody else is naming the F# as eviç instead. I am sure the nerds of Turkish music theory fight over that one? Or else the wiki article is in error plain and simple.
Anyway, as I see it, the western translation table is constructed based on the 4th degree of Rast, it seems, or the lydian mode (corresponding to circle of 5ths as C-G-D-A-E-Bd-F# etc)...but later they adjusted the whole darn thing such that Segah and Eviç were replaced in order better align with the Western Do re mi fa sol la si do....and the true mother mode tonic therefore lands on Sol, and the 5th of the mother mode appears as RE or D in the chart (not named Neva because it is below tonic). I have a feeling that whoever renamed D below Rast as “yegah”, wanted to view THAT as the basis of the system, hence the name “first”. The note was originally pençgah meaning 5 or 5th, so maybe this person saw the 5th relationships going on (that eventually lead to tonality) and recognized yegah->Rast-> charga an important relationship? Cuz the only other thing would be that there must be some mode with yegah as tonic (a D dorian equivalent?) that was once super important. Anyway the entire system would make more sense to westerners IMO, if they used the “Rast” as the basis and called it C.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Oct. 16 2020 15:28:29
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Mavi
Posts: 24
Joined: Jun. 11 2015
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
13th century camel tastes allowed us to keep music? When was that song you showed the score of in 14/8 actually coming from? Is that very old as well?
(According to legend) that piece belongs to Sultan Walad (born 1227), the eldest son of Rumi. But there are legends like this in Turkish music, to increase the mythic status of the music; there are even some pieces belonging to Plato. But in any case, it should be at least a few hundreds years old, probably around 17th century.
About the sheet music I provided, they are not high quality and lots of time I find problems with the rhythmic choices they made and I don't think they would care about the subtleties about the key signatures at all.
I also think Rast - C translation would be better, that may be the way it is done in Persian music. There are endless fights about note&scale constructions, I would trust the ancient ones more if I knew them better. Do you know if the situtation is better for Indian music theory-wise? Is Indian music more aligned with how you view modal music? I always wonder, in terms of effecting each other, which one was more dominant, Persian or Indian (I assume Arabic and Turkish music are mainly derived from Persian, but I may be wrong).
And also, returning back to flamenco, what would be the correct (authentic) terminology to analyze a fandango, for example, if you don't use the western music concepts like related major, dominant etc?
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Date Oct. 16 2020 18:59:44
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Looking for good book on music t... (in reply to Mavi)
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quote:
Is Indian music more aligned with how you view modal music?
Absolutely. All the stuff I have listened to uses a drone (Only tonic, or tonic and 5th together). Even the drums are tuned to the drone and the 5th usually. Everything they play is based on that. And therefore the tonic is always “Sah” which is “Do”, but they also have the in between notes above that. And their rules of mixing notes around, but they wouldn’t be changing tonic because they can’t change the drone mid song.
quote:
And also, returning back to flamenco, what would be the correct (authentic) terminology to analyze a fandango, for example, if you don't use the western music concepts like related major, dominant etc?
Well they don’t “analyze” in flamenco they just learn it by ear. The technical terminology used by flamencos would be descriptions of the key (tres por Arriba) and the tonos are chords and named by their root by solefegio plus capo position. In other words “tres por Arriba” is the key of G on piano, but the guitarist plays in E phrygian, capo at 3rd fret. When the singing starts the guitarist listens for the notes that call in the “tonos”. He hears one of several note options that tell him to play or answer each of the 6 phrases with Do, Fa, Do, Sol, Do, and resolve Fa-Mi. The structure holds for other Fandango related song forms, and respective guitar keys, even though the melodic details change. But they don’t transpose the above, they name the new tonos after capo is positioned. So Taranta is Fa sostonido, tonos Re, Sol, Re, La, Re, Sol-Fa sostonido. Singers don’t ever use the solefegio for their melody notes, only to tell a guitarist what chord to play (and only in rare cases), and some will clarify with “mayor” or “menor” if the guitarist is again confused. Like in the middle of bulerias por medio, if the singer switches to cuple, and the guitarist doesn’t recognize the switch, he might tell the guitarist “La menor!”, or ignore it and move on.
Good singers more often will sing the tonic of the chord to the guitarist if he hits a wrong tono based on the melody. For example, when I first heard “Malva loca” by Caracol, the melody goes to G note, and I as a young player played a G chord, waiting for the singer to give me an E or C so I could move to “Do” the first change. The singer just looked at me funny and sang a low C before continuing. And ever after I knew that melody (landing on G) is calling in the C chord right away. Sort of like a half compas (only 4 out of a normal 8 syllable phrase of lyrics). And of course I refer to an informal situation, not a concert stage.
So the flamenco terminology is adequate for mastering the music, and it’s pretty simplistic in theory terms, however, it is inevitable that folks are curious as to how what goes on in flamenco relates to what they know as guitar players or music enthusiasts in general.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Oct. 16 2020 21:16:54
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