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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2006 18:44:26

itoprover

Posts: 343
Joined: Jan. 3 2006

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

I always use hard tension because of many reasons: better feel and response, precise, volume, etc. I have tried mediums several times and each time there was a disappointment. If bridge/action setup is made appropriately on your guitar you should not feel any discomfort when playing on hard tension strings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2006 20:09:59

gshaviv

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

I found I break my nails more often using high tension strings. I stick to medium tension for that reason only. I like the sound of high tension better though.

I do find that with low tension technique is easier, but I don't like the sound as much. so medium tension is the best compromise for me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2006 20:49:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

String tension is relative to brand and guitar and set up/action. So it really depends. Whatever it is, hard medium light, I don't like the strings to buzz TOO MUCH so if I play really hard, the tone does not come out in the trebles. I call that "fretting out". But really hard tension strings that don't buzz at all often sound kind of dull. But yes, the harder the tension, the harder it is to play, relatively speaking. It affects more the left hand than the right to me, but again it depends on the guitar. I some times use a mix, normal tension for trebles, hard for the basses. Depends on string brand and guitar.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2006 21:17:16

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

Higher tension sound duller/softer, lower sound "raspier" - IMO generally better for flamenco sund.

If I started again on guitar I would take the lowest tension I can get! It makes everything alot easier to learn!

High tension basses are absolutely killer in a bad way. First playing, second soundwise and third: the basses on a gutiar are always louder than the trebles anyway.

Though I experienced that it highly also depends on the guitar, the scale and action!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2006 21:39:03

Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

It really depends on the player in question. People who pluck and strum with a lot of strength will probably want higher tensions, or they will end up with a lot of buzz.

I personally dislike soft strings since I feel uncomfrotable without some tension under my fingers. I also tend to yank the bottom string down and off the fretboard on a pulloff more often when I use soft strings.

*shrug*

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2006 14:50:30

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2006 15:37:41

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726
Does it increase your muscle strength to play with hard tension strings?

I think you are coming at this the wrong way - if you want to build muscles, go to the gym rather than play guitar. If you mean 'will playing higher tension strings help develop my flamenco technique' I would say not necessarily.

Certainly higher tension strings of any particular brand will require a firmer technique - you can feel it in both hands, but this may actually mean that you require less effort to do something on a particular guitar. But the difference in the actual force required here to play medium vs high tension strings is tiny.

Its more of a comfort thing. Play with normal tensions for a while, play with hard tensions, try different brands, you will soon see which sounds and feels the best to you on your guitar.

BTW just to add in another factor which no-one ever seems to mention - string thickness. For me this is just as much of an issue as tension. I used to play D'Addarios all the time but the high tensions are just too thick for me (esp that 3rd), so I switched to Savarez.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2006 15:54:34

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

Lionel,

I don't think string tension has as much to do with how difficult (therefore how strong your fingers have to be) a guitar is to play as much as the general setup (nut and saddle height, fret board angle, fret dressing, etc). On an instrument that is set up correctly, you shouldn't notice the tension differences in the left hand very much. If you do notice a major change in the guitars playability, then the higher tension is probably simply highlighting a set up issue. For the right hand, you will notice a higher resistance when you hit the strings but it doesn't take much extra strength to adjust to this ... its simply a different feel to get used to. Strength is deveoped by striking the strings firmly and securely with the right hand and generally raising you overall playing volume. The left hand doesn't need to be that strong. If it you are using muscle to play the left hand then your techique needs adjusting because it shouldn't require strenght to play the left hand.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2006 16:04:18

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

Hmmmm... guys I just have to disagree that string tension is such a minor factor. Maybe it is for a beginner or someone who hasn't developed his touch that much, but I find that some elements of my technique are very "picky". For example, I had some pretty old Gallis on my negra and put some new Hannabachs (both brands were high tension) on. Well, there was a big difference, in both hands. I was buzzing and squeaking all over the place, and having problems with barres. It was very frustrating, actually. The strings felt uncomfortably tight in the RH, too. How much of this was old vs new strings or Galli vs Hannabach, I don't know.

On the other hand, if the string action is raised or lowered just 1/64th of an inch, it will bother me too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2006 16:46:20

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 2:05:22

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

Shroomy,

Try detuning your guitar a step and see how much it helps you play. It makes the guitar feel like a toy. A lot more control.

I got the idea to get an extra guitar and string it up with higher tension strings than you usually use. Maybe even raise the action a bit. Practice with that thing as a "workout". It could even be a subtle thing, but I think it would make playing your normal guitar easier...I haven't tried it though.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 4:26:11

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

You dont need "strong" hands. Just normal, healthy hands.
They just have to be trained the right way.
It has nothing to do with excessive force.
Mostly you need no more than the wieght of your hand to
accomplish everything.

The right hand simply takes a long time to train.
Hitting a string the perfect way, is very complex actually,
i think more than alot of people realize. Flamenco right hand is
especially decievingly evil.

and there are no short cuts.
The technique serves the higher/lower
tension, not the other way around.
One shouldnt be so dependant on miniscule setup variants like
tension or action.
We need to be more flexible.

Overtrain!!

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 4:26:16

Jon Boyes

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 8:15:44

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Try detuning your guitar a step and see how much it helps you play. It makes the guitar feel like a toy. A lot more control.

Hmmm.. lets take this a step further, try tuning your guitar a whole octave down to see how much easier it is to play. How's that alzapua feel now?

When I step down a tension some techniques are harder to do, because the strings do not return as quickly as a I need them to. I notice others (eg Grisha on picado) have said this too.

Higher tension can mean less effort.

I think this idea of 'working out' on higher tension strings in order to improve your overall technique is very dubious. I think its a good way to fool yourself.
You could take this principle further - why not buy the highest tension strings money can buy, and raise your action too?

I don't buy it. IMO beginners are much better off fitting normal tension strings and getting on with it. Plenty of time to 'fine tune' things later as their technique develops, not the other way round, as Todd says.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 9:05:50

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

I allways play low tension. Not because of technic or so. I use them coz my nails are soo weak.. If I use harder tension and play some thumbfalsetas.. (many..) the string rasps my nails down with the protection on top. :.(( So I have to play with low tension.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 9:24:54

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

The better the technique the less important becomes string tension?

Coz I guess the better one is the more "independent" you are from other factors like guitar and strings. For a beginner it might be hard to play on hard tension or maybe even on low tension, but I think more people will have problems with high tension strings. Not only for the righthand also lefthand is easier with low tension (in general).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 13:53:58

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Jon Boyes)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes

[
Hmmm.. lets take this a step further, try tuning your guitar a whole octave down to see how much easier it is to play. How's that alzapua feel now?

Okay, I'll grant you that a guitar detuned an octave will make it hard to do alzapua.

But that has very little to do with my concept, in which I suggested very slightly overtraining in order to make normal playing easier. An octave would make it a different instrument.

While many very good players think that harder tension makes picado, for example, easier, that has not been my experience. Even Grisha said that playing long picado runs creates a good amount of tension in the RH forearms. I guess I should admit that picado is the main problem for me. I know I can adjust my rasgueados, arpeggios, alzapua RH with different string tensions, but picado is so inconsistent for me that it has to be just so.

Another way to look at it is just that my concept doesn't actually strengthen hands so much as force them to use more precise and accurate fretting (LH). A lot of players get away with sloppy LH technique on lower tension strings that they might not attempt or be able to use with a higher tension. Hand strength would have something to do with this. You can say that guitar doesn't require strong hands, but of course it matters. The detuning experiment proves that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 14:02:12

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

I think if you appoach technique in such away that you feel stronger hands will make playing easier, then you are simply trying to force your hands to play by overpowering the instrument. For instance, squeezing harder and harder to play a bar chord is completely wrong and having iron fists isn't the answer. A good teacher will point out to someone playing a bar chord, that you should roll your index a bit, try the index a bit higher or lower and most importantly let you arm's weight drop and pull the strings into the finger board. If you can't play a basic barre without using your thumb on the neck, then your approach is wrong and you're sqeezing too much.

Try this. Play a note, say on the third string, fifth fret with the left hand index finger. As soon at the note sounds start releasing the pressure with your index finger until the note starts to buzz. Now, add a bit more pressure to stop the buzzing. This is the amount of 'strength' you need to play a note. Generally, most player realise that this is a lot less than they are used to. This can be turned into a great exercise to help reduce hand strain.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 14:49:44

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Another way to look at it is just that my concept doesn't actually strengthen hands so much as force them to use more precise and accurate fretting (LH). A lot of players get away with sloppy LH technique on lower tension strings that they might not attempt or be able to use with a higher tension. Hand strength would have something to do with this. You can say that guitar doesn't require strong hands, but of course it matters. The detuning experiment proves that.

I disagree, I think it is a red herring.

Which is easier - to kick a football thats fully inflated, or one with a puncture that doesn't bounce properly?

Which has the highest tension?

IMO I would need more 'strength' to kick the flat football as far as the inflated ball.

Now I am not suggesting that high tension always = easier, but I am not sure this detuning idea gets us anywhere. I actually feel some chords can be easier to hold with higher tension strings due to their increased thickness and because they are a little firmer with less tendency to slip. In other words, I find I can be less precise with my L/H fingering technique, not more. Also:

-Bar chords can feel more 'positive' with less chance of the third string getting lost in a finger crease.

-Pulgar falsetas are easier to pull off with fatter, louder strings, especially on the fifth string (ie playing between the 4th and sixth).

This all assumes a nice low action of course, esp. with the nut set up spot on. A fraction too high and high tension strings become a killer.

Some techniques (eg. rasgueado) I find harder to do with higher tension strings.

Obviously others might find exactly the opposite is true with lower tension strings.

At the end of the day its all about compromise and finding whats best for you/your guitar, but I think the "better technique comes from greater hand strength" argument has us all squeezing tennis balls and I don't want to go there

.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 15:07:58

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 15:16:24

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

Perhaps the difference in tremelo is related to the more percussive / less sustain of higher tension strings than a techincal issue. Certainly the added sustain of lower tension strings adds to the fluidity of tremelo. Just a thought but maybe it not a technical issue at all but rather the inherent differences in the sound the different tensions produce. Thoughts? (btw, I have used a high tension treble and low tension bass combo for years as a prefered balance of sound and attack).

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 16:13:41

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

ARgg...kind of confusing for me. Red herrings and the high-tension strings we use to tame them. I don't know, maybe my hands are just weaker than that of a normal person. I seem to get niggling injuries all the time.

But one more thing...I know a guy named Humberto Bruni, a classical guitarist based in Venezuela. He told me an interesting story about when he was in grad school and studying the Aranjuez Concerto. For those of you not into CG, it is a Spanishy piece where the guitar plays the central role, "backed up" by a small orchestra. It was once known as a kind of initiation in that only "virtuoso" players could pull it off.

Well, Humberto told me that although he had pretty much been able to master all the CG rep he had encountered up to that point, that the Aranjuez was killing him. He came to the conclusion that his current physical abilities were simply insufficient to play it. His solution was to develop a device to help increase the strength of his hands. Kind of a scary thought, wasn't it Schumann who permanently injured himself, thus forcing him to become a composer (to the world's benefit, fo course).

Anyway, according to Humberto, it worked, it helped him get stronger and better and he was able to master the Concerto.

Since then, he has developed this concept even more and made some computer-aided biofeedback devices that help focus the training! He is a very interesting person. He has even put together a presentation with graphs and charts showing that greater strength increases independence between i and a (the fingers he uses to do scales).

I thought he had an interesting point and he has documented that it worked for him. He has a website which might have some more information.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 16:18:58

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

[I think the main point that should come out here, is, dont put responsibility
on your instrument's setup, to help carry you through technique.
You're technique will be weak, and vulnerable.

If you put a different tension string on your guitar, and your
technique goes to crap, that is because of your technique, not
because of the tension change.

A pro Quarterback doesnt blame his interceptions on the new shoes
he's wearing that day. He shouldnt have to depend on a particular
pair of cleets to throw properly. He's expected to deliver in ANY
conditions.

To micheal, there are just too many mediocre players who can play
through Aranjuez, who didnt do what Bruni did.
Its not that tough of a piece to be honest.
Imho, something like Sevilla is much harder.
Aranjuez is just so frickin Long. :) Thats the hardest thing
about it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 18:57:59

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2006 22:07:49

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

quote:

That is quite an insulting conclusion you make out of all this.

Shroomy,
I'm sure Todd was meaning "your" technique as in "one's" technique and not meaning you personally.
I have to agree about a secure technique being independent of small variables though.
I heard a story about Tomatito accidentally damaging his guitar on the day of a concert in Washington DC and someone who owned a guitar shop offered to lend him one of his top range guitars, mentioning the maker's names etc.
Tomatito seemed pretty relaxed about it and just said "yeah, great, whatever... ".
To do a top level concert on a guitar you've never even played before requires some confidence in your technique IMO.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2006 9:06:51

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2006 13:45:17

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

Hey Lionel,

"My original post was also in search for what tension does everyone use."

Fair enough :)

To answer you question directly I use high tension trebles and low tensions basses merely as a preference for sound and balance not for technical reasons.

Personally speaking, I've been playing for 25+ years and don't really notice much technically based on string tension or set up etc. I am a rather technical player (to a deficit at times). I've always felt uncomfortable when someone hands me a a guitar and says "play something" and I have to make excuses because in the end they don't understand ... they just think "but your a guitar player aren't you?". So I refuse to succumb to this type of hurdle (I've even played a soleares on a plastic ukulele at a cottage once for family). In fact, on my way to play a recital once, I slipped on some ice and split the top of my guitar in two places and it was a write off. When I arrived to play, I borrowed my teachers guitar (which I'd never really cared for) warmed up and played my recital. Granted it was uncomfortable, but no one else cared or noticed.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2006 14:30:18

Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: String tension and playing (in reply to Guest)

Interesting story, Sean. By the way...

quote:

I use high tension trebles and low tensions basses merely as a preference for sound and balance not for technical reasons.

I haven't mixed my strings in that manner, yet. I usually just go to the local music store and buy what they have available. The last time was a couple of days ago. The guy behind the counter said "Can I help you?". I said "I'm just looking for some nylon strings". He says "Ok, plain or ball end?". I said "I don't know, what tension are they?". He says "Hu? I don't know". I think it's time to find a new source of strings. I ended up buying some Ernie Balls, still don't know what tension they are. They're not bad, so far.

I agree with Ron, I don't think it was Todd's intention to offend. I also agree with this: