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RE: The Art of Zen Guitar
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sorin popovici
Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania
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 RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
referring to the original out of compas performance, if there was one real flamenco player in the audience who picked up on the lack of proper rhythm and timing and hated the show while the rest of the house enjoyed it, aren't both opinions correct?
sure,well said ...the fact that smth is not correct has nothing to do with liking or disliking.
I just opened regarding a thread upon Oscar nominees for this year.As I was watching one of the movies a coleague of mine asked ...why do I take the time to do that ,why dont I watch the movies with the greatest boxoffice cause (u know this arguement ) if 10.000 people say that movie is good it's nonsense to believe otherwise to think another thing just because an whatever specialist says so.
My answer was like ...."look man if your computer breaks down,are u gonna ask your neighbours to fix it or ask a man that's in the computer business to come and fix it?"
I really believed this is about the same thing ...just that this domain, "music", has much more coverage or popularity and there are more nonprofesionists that state their opinion then are amateur electronists and trained electronists.So I say ...sure if the guy that is
a specialist say this is corect ...u got to gave him the credit .That doesnt mean that because
"this is not real flamenco" u should not enjoy it,u enjoy it or not without having to ask permission and it is your right.But u should be aware of the specialist opinion and dont deny it ...and deal with it ....either feel a little guilty for your ignorance and try to learn to understand that particular domain better ,either decide that this is out of your area of interest and enjoy what u know but do not try to impose your belief as a corect one since
u already gave up your right to criticize when u chose not to learn to be competent in that domain.
Sorry for my english..
By the way ,I am no specialist  but nice photos ricecrackerphoto !(ok,I recognize I enjoyed especially the one with the chicks in jeans (sorry for the dumb joke))
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Date Feb. 28 2006 16:52:34
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to sorin popovici)
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Wow! If it wasn't for Romerito's necroposting I never would have seen this thread. It's been an interesting read.
There are a few thoughts that come to mind.
Regarding compas, if the guitar is not accompanying how important are the constraints of compas? Can the music not be played 'libre'?
It seems the purists say that unless they follow the classic 'pure' constraints of the music, it's not Flamenco.
If people don't follow proper blues progressions when they play blues, is it still blues?
If a person says "I love Flamenco but I don't care for compas." What are they playing?
Later you guys mentioned communication of feeling. I don't get this at all. I've heard of teachers saying "once more, with feeling" and driving students crazy because they're putting their all into it.
Does that mean that a guy who uses little corny ornamentals or disingenuine pauses and playing with the compas plays with more feeling?
A layman walks into an art gallery and looks at a work and doesn't 'get it', who's at fault? The artist, or the layman. The cogniscenti 'get it' but the laymen don't. Has the artist communicated properly?
For 'laypersons' they 'get' Strunz & Farrah, or Liebert, or Cook, or the Gypsy Kings or even PDL's more popular(i.e. vulgar) pieces.
However, I, like most people, knew of the above mentioned - but much of PDL and others would leave me cold. Sabicas would have too.
It would have continued that way had I not experienced a live PDL concert.
How many people would ever learn about flamenco puro if they weren't attracted by the pop 'neuveau' flamencos and come to place like this one and learn more about this subject?
(BTW: you guys might consider making a Flamenco FAQ here to help people with this)
I don't know if what I've just said has any conclusions or answers anything, but these are the questions I have.
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Date Nov. 12 2006 5:39:24
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to sorin popovici)
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Exitao,
I think compas, if we take compas to mean rhythm, to be essential no matter if you are playng with others or by yourself. I got this idea from Ron originally, and also from Ricardo's incessant mentioning of it  .
Ron pointed out that the guys who had great rhythm sounded better even when playing toque libres. That sounds like a bit of a contradiction, but I don't think it is. For one thing, even within the toque libres, they are falsetas or periods which do have a steady beat. Another thing is that rhythmic ability connotes precision, and precision is essential.
I think one of the things that makes for a satisfying sound is precision--each note in its place. When that is lacking, you get a wobbly, sound--the difference between someone singing in tune and somone--not. The more experienced a musician you are, the easier it is to tell if someone's off or not (a mixed blessing, to be sure). This is one reason why a lot of begginers like certain guitarists, while experienced people do not. It's not necessarily snobbery, but a higher level of perception in which annoying flaws are more easily noticed.
On a somewhat related note, good guitars are balanced and in tune across the registers and this is one reason some guitars appear to be more musical and easier to play.
Paco de Lucia seems to be the most precise guitarist I have ever heard. Fast or slow, every note is in its place. It's actually eerie, because he might play an incredibly fast arpeggio, but each note is struck precisely. You hear the incredible speed played with no effort, no drag--it's kind of unnatural, really.
I have mentioned before that I slowed down some picado runs of Paco and Tonino (flashy guitarist for Gipsy Kings). IF you slow down Paco's fast runs, you will be amazed that he keeps that precision, whereas Tonino's runs, at half speed, sound sloppy and weird. There is a stark difference in rhythmic control. It is audible at high speeds if you know what to listen for (by the way, I love Tonino's playing).
Everything I have learned points to me that you have to have a disciplined mind, and approach the guitar almost like a Zen exercise. Mindfulness, constant pursuit of perfectiong, doing everything right every time. It's a somewhat stark assignment, but the payoffs are great. Of course, the Buddhists would say it's not the payoff, but the process, that is the point.
(All preceding hot air simply IMO)
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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Nov. 12 2006 14:06:30
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
Ron pointed out that the guys who had great rhythm sounded better even when playing toque libres. That sounds like a bit of a contradiction, but I don't think it is. For one thing, even within the toque libres, they are falsetas or periods which do have a steady beat. Another thing is that rhythmic ability connotes precision, and precision is essential.
In Spanish, compas seems to mean the same thing as tempo. But Flamenco compas is polyrhythmic.
The undeducated ear obviously doesn't miss the more complex rhythms of a proper flamenco compas, as long as a basic tempo is adhered to.
Once I started listening for compas I really started to notice when it was missing (I can't always catch it when it's there, but its lack is extremely noticeable).
So, yes, experience makes a difference.
But it seems that there are a lot of people who like the sounds of flamenco techniques, but choose to remain ignorant of flamenco's more complex rhythms. I'm sure that this would be grating to a flamenco purist's ears, but when it was a deliberate choice, does the purist really have a right to complain?
Artists always do what they want, and if we don't understand or agree with their intent, who's problem is it, really?
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Date Nov. 12 2006 14:29:57
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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I am with you on this Miguel, and totally agree with you said Ron said about "libre" playing. And regarding this:
quote:
they are falsetas or periods which do have a steady beat.
And also what Exitao said here:
quote:
compas seems to mean the same thing as tempo.
I would like to add to this or clearify my view on this. There is MORE to what compas means or the term "rhythm" than simply tempo, or keeping a steady beat. The other things involved are meter (length of a rhythmic phrase or cycle if it repeats) and the "style" which involves all the little things that differentiate one compas or rhythmic feel from another. Things about the subdivision, accentuation, dynamics. Easy to just call it the "feel" or the "swing" or the "funk" , the "soniquete" of the rhtyhm, but very complex when you examine it specifically.
I personally feel NUMBER 1 on any students list for learning or focusing on rhythm IS tempo. You can't get into the other areas properly if you dont get the concept of how the beat or quarter note should not move. But that is why they invented the metronme. To help with step one. Step 2 would be like getting into subdividing while maintaining the tempo. For some folk these 2 steps is simply a "feeling" nothing to think or practice, similar to people with either perfect pitch, or the ability to sing perfectly in tune any song they hear (relative pitch). But for many, the metronome helps to keep people grounded and develop an internal clock.
So what I see often is folks geting into music that is a bit too hard, going for all the fun "stylistic" things about rhythm, BEFORE being properly grounded with tempo. Now, if you don't have great tempo I don't mean you should only work on simple rhythms forever until you get "perfect" without a metronome. But at least recognize why you need to keep working with the metronome. Be aware of how even you are and how even you COULD be.
So some folks look at "libre" as you are free of time all together, or worse, it is a good excuse to make timing mistakes as you please. I disagree. Compas in flamenco often has a "flexable" or moving tempo, but that is from the point of view of someone IN CONTROL of the tempo. You can't be liberal with tempo deliberately, if you can't hold the tempo to begin with. Rushing and dragging are MISTAKES. Accelerating and decreasing tempo are supposed to be CONTROLLED tempo changes.
Because the tempo moves in flamenco music, many use that as an excuse to not work with a metronome. Also a strange common occurance I have seen is guitarists well versed in a different style, Rock, blues, jazz, etc, that have good rhythm in those styles, encounter flamenco "compas" get caught up in the complexities of counting beat cycles or changing meters, and totally forget everything they understand about basic TEMPO. I dont' understand why, but it is very common. If they focused on simply the steady beat, a lot of the "mysteries" of compas and flamenco phrasing would reveal themselves.
I have seen even good rumberos who are doing flamencoish things forget about tempo when they try some real flamenco stuff (like bulerias). There is the other problem too of course, where a musician has the tempo, but does not get the idea of meter and "style". For examp. Manitas de Plata has pretty good tempo IMO, but cuts off beats from the phrase all the time. He does not get the meter for some reason, but sounds somehow cabable. Ottmar has good tempo, plays the correct meter when he wants to, but does not get any of the important parts of compas that are included under the "style" umbrella.
For the record, I feel it is perfectly natural and human to make mistakes in rhythm. Be it Rushing or Dragging, adding or subtracting beats, wrong "style" or feel or soniquete, getting lost or stuck in a different beat or off beat, or just not understanding where the beat is at all. It is nothing to be ashamed of, so long as one acknowleadges these things AS MISTAKES. There are tons of testaments by pro musicians who have allowed timing "mistakes" to go down on tape, for the sake of the expression and things like that. It is human. But make a distinction between what is deliberate, and what is accidental.
Ricardo
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Date Nov. 12 2006 19:39:00
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to Exitao)
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quote:
So even if I follow the notated time signatures accurately, I may not be in compas. Liebert is the perfect example of this.
So what of the people who are happy to follow the notated tempo and ignore the 'swing'? It may be a deliberate choice and many people may be content. But the purist will say that that is just an 'excuse' and a poor one at that.
Yep, I agree with where you are going. I would say you could be IN compas, but not describe it as "good compas" or the wrong "feel" or the wrong "soniquete". In the case of Leibert I would say he has tempo and the meter or time signature correct, but he simply does not play the real "flamenco compas". But since I have heard him TRY to play bulerias, and call it that, I would say he just does not have good compas. Since he is not trying to better himself that I have seen in regards to learning the proper way, I say he is doing his psuedo flamenco in bad taste.
In contrast I have heard people doing the correct type of strumming and number of beats, etc, but they tend to rush and not take care about feeling all the subdivisions. No groove. That is also not "good compas", and mainly has to do with tempo. A metronome would help that guy. Metronome would not help Ottmar. See the difference?
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Date Nov. 13 2006 2:33:22
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to Exitao)
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quote:
So if he didn't call it bulerias, but something in the style of bulerias, would that make a difference? Or is that still just a cop-out?
Well, I guess so. If he called it "Lotus peddals and an asian body builder" instead of bulerias? I think the one I refer to where he really tried was on a live album with a red cover. I will look for the title, but I don't own any cds by him anymore. One would have to listen and decide if is "bad flamenco" or simply NOT flamenco, draw your own conclusion. One thing for sure it is not "good flamenco" or "good compas". And I have something his DVD where the drummer is using electric drum pads, and they are trying their hardest do bulerias and do trade offs. I just consider it in bad taste that is all, the rhythms they do. Not "the real" bulerias.
As a contrast listen to paco and mclaughlin's "chiquito". That is "the real" compas of alegrias that paco is doing, but it is NOT flamenco overall. It is a fusion. But the compas is what it is.
One thing I forgot to add about what Miguel said about Tonino. Sometimes it is cool to have a "loose" solo. It can be part of expression. But all the time in every solo? It kind of means it was not really deliberate or that the soloist just does not understand how to phrase. Tonino has great rhythm actually, he can play worked out falsetas very tight, but yeah his phrasing when improvising is not so clear and tight. Especially when you realize he is trying to play a lot like Paco, his idol, as mentioned, and a fair comparison. Similar to how Yngwie solos, very loose. The band can't react to that, they have to lay down the groove and ignore. One could argue that is his own style, and for sure it is recognizable. But I would say what Paco is doing, and other improvisers that phrase with very precise timing, are more advanced. Of course to the layman, it might sound the same.
Ricardo
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Date Nov. 13 2006 3:34:39
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