Descending picado run

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devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

Descending picado run

It looks like I have to change my way of playing picado. In this video at 0:11-0:14 Paco lifts his right elbow only. His right shoulder is not raised. In this ways his picado run gets more diagonal than vertical. Is it the standard way of doing descending picado run or is it only Paco? How do you guys execute your descending picado run? How about ascending picado run? Does it have to be diagonal as well?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2020 20:04:26

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

It looks like I have to change my way of playing picado

devilhand I think you are taking a very dangerous route here.

A skilled teacher may not be able to play like PdL but he will have a way of starting with simple steps, building skill on skill, and covering the bases. I tried once too play things way beyond my ability (and anything by PdL for sure is in that category

). It doesn't work. I quit and lost 15 years

Now with simple skills being acquired one by one I have enjoyed it more and have made a lot of progress. After 520 days my Bodega has solid foundations

ps Of course you may have far more natural talent than me. These are just my thoughts.

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2020 20:30:32

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to devilhand)

Slight diagonal yes. Not straight up and down. Bass strings are too floppy closer to the sound hole so you want to head a bit toward the bridge going down. Going up you want to do the opposite unless you want a more metallic trebly tone, but it’s not typical,for Flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2020 1:40:13

Auda

Posts: 246
Joined: Sep. 28 2019

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to devilhand)

For me, one of the things that made Pdl stand above others was the the symmetry and balance between his picado and his arpeggio. I believe his arpeggio was equal with his picado as his greatest attributes. This particular piece is a prime example.

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2020 4:51:48

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Going up you want to do the opposite unless you want a more metallic trebly tone, but it’s not typical,for Flamenco.

Does it mean that ascending picado runs should be executed along the bridge vertically?

I have to admit this diagonal run feels tricky. I should keep practicing it and see if I can get used to it soon.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2020 14:57:30

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to flyeogh)

quote:

devilhand I think you are taking a very dangerous route here.

Why dangerous? This diagonal descending picado run without raising the right shoulder is healthier and keeps the tension to a minimum. The more I analyze his right hand technique the more I want to copy it because of its efficiency and effortlessness. I'd even say everyone should look at his right hand technique as a reference. At 3:15-3:20 in above video you can see how he changes his right hand position between picado, arpeggio and pulgar. The most efficient way. It doesn't get any better than that.

@Auda
What do you mean by symmetry and balance between picado and arpeggio? A smooth change in hand position between picado and arpeggio?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2020 15:10:26

Guest

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:25:03

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2020 15:18:47

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to Guest)

quote:

No diagonally. If you hold your arm at a 45 degree angle to the guitar, like most people, then to ascend and descend you have to do it diagonally to maintain the same hand position and angle of the arm. If you try to do it parallel to the bridge you will see that your hand position has to change and as Ricardo says you get a more metallic tone.

You're right. Thanks for the clarification.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2020 15:43:08

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Why dangerous? This diagonal descending picado run without raising the right shoulder is healthier and keeps the tension to a minimum.

On that you may well have a point. But I was thinking of the approach of copying Maestros in general. My best and painful example was seeing a couple of stretchy chords I needed to get a super sound I heard. But copying (or trying to

) led to a tendon injury it took me 15 days of non playing to get over. Later, having consulted a teacher,I went through a series of stages (exercises) and am now more or less where I need to be - without risk of injury.

But all the best with it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2020 17:17:30

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to flyeogh)

quote:

My best and painful example was seeing a couple of stretchy chords I needed to get a super sound I heard. But copying (or trying to ) led to a tendon injury it took me 15 days of non playing to get over.

You're right about stretchy chords. One has to be careful. I already gave up doing finger stretches. I do stretches only at higher frets if I want to. Starting straight from the first frets will be painful. I hurt my index finger.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2020 17:34:33

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

His right shoulder is not raised.

You are not supposed to raise your shoulder in any case; you say it as if you think this were a legitimate option. Or maybe it is just the wording in context. Just wanted to make the point in case this is what you were thinking or considering.

P.S. Raise from the shoulder is not raising the shoulder, it is raising the elbow (i.e. raising the forearm and thus everything else more distal to it, including the hand)

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2020 18:51:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Does it mean that ascending picado runs should be executed along the bridge vertically?

No I meant opposite direction, as in retrace your steps along the same diagonal. The treble strings you can play a little toward the soundhole compared to the basses. This is for tonal reasons. The more you hold the guitar neck up towards vertical the more straight across your arm will pull so if you might have to make more effort to head toward the bridge deliberately. The more horizontal the guitar neck, well, lifting your arm causes the diagonal move naturally. Infact, only bending elbow, zero shoulder lift, the wrist has to cock sideways and the fingers will be moving vertical. Not ideal. Paco is obviously lifting his arm via the shoulder in order that the bend in the elbow you observe is causing the diagonal move of hand.

Anyway, lots of reasons you need to pull the arm up with via shoulder (not lift shoulder itself), watch his shoulder and arm throughout
2:22. 4:25 obvious spot.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2020 19:51:15

Inglés

Posts: 52
Joined: Aug. 20 2017

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to Ricardo)

Can I add to this a query about an issue I've been having, which is how to hold the guitar in place? In general I use my forearm/elbow to keep it steady, allowing my left hand to stay in a decent position with the thumb on the back of the neck.

My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the left hand mustn't support the weight of the guitar, so if I take it off the guitar remains in place. But if I move my right elbow to play certain techniques, picado on the bass strings being a perfect example, then it feels like compromising my left hand to hold the instrument in place is my only option. What am I doing wrong here?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 7 2020 10:58:45

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

His right shoulder is not raised.

You are not supposed to raise your shoulder in any case; you say it as if you think this were a legitimate option. Or maybe it is just the wording in context. Just wanted to make the point in case this is what you were thinking or considering.

P.S. Raise from the shoulder is not raising the shoulder, it is raising the elbow (i.e. raising the forearm and thus everything else more distal to it, including the hand)

What I learnt over the last few months is raising shoulder causes tension to everything that distal to it. So I try to avoid it.

First I thought Paco's picado technique was not always optimal even though his right shoulder is raised for only 1-3 seconds. I noticed this diagonal picado run a few days ago. Strangely the same day I watched the video Effortless Classical Guitar of W. Kanengiser by pure chance. He showed this elbow lifting thing which was really an eye opener for me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 7 2020 13:49:09

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The more horizontal the guitar neck, well, lifting your arm causes the diagonal move naturally.

I hope exactly this will happen when I have to hold my guitar more or less horizontally like Paco in the video above.

I think what I have to change is to lift my elbow so that my wrist remains straight when I play picado on bass strings. The thing is I practice in classical position where the guitar neck is 45 degree diagonal.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 7 2020 13:57:02

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

It looks like I have to change my way of playing picado. In this video at 0:11-0:14 Paco lifts his right elbow only. His right shoulder is not raised. In this ways his picado run gets more diagonal than vertical. Is it the standard way of doing descending picado run or is it only Paco? How do you guys execute your descending picado run? How about ascending picado run? Does it have to be diagonal as well?

Paco is not trying to play diagonally it is simply a consequence of the fact that he wants to keep his right hand (palm and fingers) in the same configuration for all the picado - i.e. the hand shape for plucking the 6th string is the same as that for the 1st string. There is one obvious way to do this and that's by raising the upper arm (right elbow) as the hand moves from 1st to 6th string. I think he changed his arm position over the years - his upper arm movement between early and later videos seems a bit different.
A very good tip for practicing string crossing (and one which I only found out about very recently) is not to anchor the thumb (when practicing), i.e. have the right hand totally free floating. An anchored thumb can be used for playing but hinders the learning process for getting smooth finger/arm movement across the strings. And by the way, the upper arm movement follows the finger movement, i.e. it adjusts to the current location of the fingers, not the other way around.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2020 9:51:52

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Descending picado run (in reply to hamia)

quote:

A very good tip for practicing string crossing (and one which I only found out about very recently) is not to anchor the thumb (when practicing), i.e. have the right hand totally free floating. An anchored thumb can be used for playing but hinders the learning process for getting smooth finger/arm movement across the strings.

Thanks for pointing this out. I'll keep this in mind. During picado I'm concentrated more on the correct planting of my fingers than on my thumb.

quote:

And by the way, the upper arm movement follows the finger movement, i.e. it adjusts to the current location of the fingers, not the other way around.

I'll second that.

quote:

I think he changed his arm position over the years - his upper arm movement between early and later videos seems a bit different.

I'm not sure about it. Yesterday I watched Paco's biography video Francisco Sanchez. I watched young Paco (16 or 17) accompanying cante. Young Paco was playing picado in the same manner as old Paco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2020 19:06:06