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The Art of Zen Guitar
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sorin popovici
Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania
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 RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to Ron.M)
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sorry,I just got out from a little quarrel ...and that's why I had this atitude.
Nevertheless,what I said in my post(the 2nd part) ...though it was a joke ,it was true also.
To rephrase my "joke" ,so that u may see the truth I see in it :
I meant u are always in some compas,but maybe not the one u should be.For example
if u play soleares in 4/4 ,with the accents and all that (it is posible to play the 12 cycle as
3 cycle of 4 beats) u are in compas,but not the compas of a solea...which u should be.
I happen to have played ...(it was not my choice ,but they insisted argueing that they will want to hear a little "spanish" thing)in front 10 or 15 people,sometime ago when my feeling for solea compas was even worse than today...they never noticed a thing,and I think I didnt also.I played a very simple solea.U may ask...why I did it ,if I knew it was work in progress?Well,if I can make a man at least curious about things..(who knows maybe he'll be one more guy that could share the flamenco interest) worth the trouble.
it's true that most students dont have much music to give to others,but they can give u
entuziasm and make u discover new things.Anyway,it's a close call if it would be
wrong or not...the context is everything.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 20 2006 21:56:56
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
If a guy who was pretty poor on compás was to play in front of an audience who didn't know what compás was anyway...
Would it be wrong?
From the guitarist's perspective:
It would only be wrong if he had actually intended to play in compas. If he didn't care whether he was in compas or not, then there's nothing wrong.
From the audience's perspective:
It would only be wrong if the audience knew roughly what compas was, and were expecting a compas-based performance. If they weren't any the wiser about compas, or weren't expecting compas, then there's not much wrong.
Basically, if the guitarist is trying to play proper Flamenco, and went out of compas, then he's in the wrong. But if he's playing another form of music, its no big deal.
Look at Manitas De Plata... he claimed to play "Flamenco" I think, but wasn't great at compas. So he's in the wrong. But the audiences were usually none the wiser, and assumed that was real Flamenco. I guess in this instance both the guitarist and the audience are in the wrong.
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Date Feb. 21 2006 18:31:05
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to Ron.M)
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In regards to Manitas, give me a break. What a lame disclaimer for an out of compas "Solea".
In regards to the question at top, it depends what is wrong with the compas. (I assume the guy is claiming to play flamenco and not some other form of music, you did not specify really). I mean if he is adding and subtracting beats unknowingly and the audience of say, american school kids that never heard flamenco compas, doesn't or wouldn't notice, then it doesn't matter. But if the problem is tempo, shaky tempo will be noticed by at least some members of ANY audience. BUT, the guitar might be "in" compas mathematically, just with bad timing. The audience (select members) recognizes it as "wrong" or bad rhythm. But not knowing about flamenco, they may accept it anyway, thinking liberties are allowed. Depends on the person, and how convincing the "liberties" are.
Here is one. If a guitarist plays his heart out and perfectly, no mistakes, in front of a critical audience, who later claims (meaning the ENTIRE audience) the guitarist was mechanical and cold with no "soul" and only technique display, does that mean there was no feeling in the performance?
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 21 2006 21:02:14
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Well in these hypothetical situations, the idea that an ENTIRE audience doesn't feel it or understand compas or whatever, is far fetched. The point is to put an artist out of his element I think to do a thought experiment. Like if a tree falls in the forrest...what forrest and WHY would anyone be there normally? Eventually it comes down to point of view and whose is more valid. Easy answer...all points of view are the same value. Although Einstein argued that anything traveling at light speed has a unique point of view relative to all else.
quote:
Music is communication...
Always? I guess the thing I am really getting at, is that I personally have always been very deeply moved by artists that seem to be playing more for themselves than the audience. You know, satisfying themselves, releasing frustration or whatever, getting it out on the instrument or whatever, looking in, rather than pleasing the crowd. I hate that phony romantic "emotion" that scrapes the surface for entertainment value, selling concert tickets and CDs. I would think playing music by yourself in your room can still be considered good music with really deep feeling, (and in or out of compas regardless if you meant to do it or not). But who did you communicate it to? Who is the recipient of the emotion "lonliness", the main ingredient of Soleares?
As an audience member I blame myself for not "getting" the music. Yeah that sounds weird. But if I stop focus, I get lost, and bored, if the music is too complex especially. Sometimes it grabs me, not always, but I blame myself, not the artist for that. I saw strunz and farah, I was singing the solo to my friend before he played it, and he was improvising. I was bored, because I figured out the formula. So does that mean strunz is boring? Not to a lot of folks there. But then, if I knew the formula, why did I go? My fault again as the audience member. I mean, it is hard to go to a concert and be REALLY open minded. Vicente bored me a little last year, but two weeks ago he surprised me. Some friends missed it because they felt like me last year. Well they missed out on the opportunity. Or did they? I wouldn't blame Vicente for that, or say he plays better now. It is more about ME the listener and how focused I was. If you think a concert is going to suck, most likely it will, but it depends on your attitude.
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Date Feb. 24 2006 7:49:56
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sorin popovici
Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania
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RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to Ron.M)
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sorry for the joke.
 I knew it ....so 220 bpm picado sometimes is not enough to rock the house,but if I play picado at speed of light since I know that I'll definetely like it and Einstein said there's only
one point of relative view....that means everybody should have my point of view upon my performance.Oh,u all nonbelievers....u see it now ,picado speed does definetely count ,Einstein
said it (actually I've heard he played violin,but anyway) and u cant fight Einstein's reason!
QED
I dont know about music,sometimes when is under my fingers I tend to apreciate more things that I would have said that are not that great.I have this weird thing,I've looked
at some Joe Pass instructional...and to be honest I dont really listen Joe Pass on albums.
But when looked him explain his music on video,and taking little examples one by one...the music was more interesting,and I was captivated for the whole hour.So in my case my lack of knowledge sometimes seems to get in my way of apreciating things.Anyway,this was about that topic "acquired taste".I know a friend that now is listening panflute cause he
happened to buy one.Before starting to play it..he didnt apreciate it too much.Btw,I'm thinking to buy a cheap blockflote ....any good methods( hope ...free methods) on the net ?(I'm just thinking ...I'm a little jealous ,cause that guy now plays guitar,piano and
panflute.Also I thought it would be great ,cause I can carry it around with me easily.Dont
really know what u can play on it but whatever.)
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Date Feb. 24 2006 9:32:37
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Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
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RE: The Art of Zen Guitar (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
What about the guitarist's feelings when playing the music? Do his feelings not count, only if the feeling is decidedly transmitted to another?
Ah, but in your original post you said :"... the guitarist was mechanical and cold with no "soul" and only technique display, does that mean there was no feeling in the performance?" (emphasis mine).
Yes the guitarists feelings 'count', but what is the point of performance? To enjoy oneself or entertain others?
Is playing on your own really the same as playing to an audience? (what you suggest in your post lower down).
There could be plenty of emotion in the guitarists' playing (from the guitarists perspective) yet no emotion conveyed during the performance, that's my point.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I personally have always been very deeply moved by artists that seem to be playing more for themselves than the audience. You know, satisfying themselves, releasing frustration or whatever, getting it out on the instrument or whatever, looking in, rather than pleasing the crowd. I hate that phony romantic "emotion"
Yes, but what are you really saying here? Basically that the performance by the artists in your examples moved you somehow. How? They must have conveyed some of that pent up frustration and release for you to pick up on it. The performance worked.
I don't see the logic that a successful performance somehow entails phoney romanticism.
Jon
_____________________________
Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
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Date Feb. 27 2006 9:35:58
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