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Forgive me if this has been discussed here elsewhere, but I'm wondering how different flamenco connoisseurs, including those here, feel about very rubato-style guitar renderings of, e.g., soleares and siguiriyas. There would be innumerable examples, but a good one is this soleá with Moraito Chico here, with Mercé. In almost all of his falsetas/entrecoplas, he tends to compress the compás, sometimes way beyond recognition, sometimes even maintaining a relatively steady pulse but dropping beats in the middle. (See, e.g., from 2:40, and 4:00). (His compás is more regular when Mercé is singing.) Are there different opinions, different schools of thought about this sort of playing? (I recall David Serva scowling once when hearing this sort of thing in a tavern in Jerez.) https://youtu.be/hMoxIxhAsNs
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Steelhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Steelhead
Forgive me if this has been discussed here elsewhere, but I'm wondering how different flamenco connoisseurs, including those here, feel about very rubato-style guitar renderings of, e.g., soleares and siguiriyas. There would be innumerable examples, but a good one is this soleá with Moraito Chico here, with Mercé. In almost all of his falsetas/entrecoplas, he tends to compress the compás, sometimes way beyond recognition, sometimes even maintaining a relatively steady pulse but dropping beats in the middle. (See, e.g., from 2:40, and 4:00). (His compás is more regular when Mercé is singing.) Are there different opinions, different schools of thought about this sort of playing? (I recall David Serva scowling once when hearing this sort of thing in a tavern in Jerez.)
The topic was discussed as “elastic compas”. Romerito instigated much of those topics and later deleted everything so it’s not easy to follow. His basic idea was that ONLY deeply imbedded Spaniards claimed a cultural “right” to play out of compas for cante, and my point of view was quite different and specific, and not well understood nor accepted by most. But I still feel the same and I think I’m correct 😂. Here is the jist:
Back in the days of Talega, as you can see by the transcription you and everybody else likes to point to, it was normal for the singer to listen to a guitarist keeping the tempo and feel, and sing relatively “freely” over that compas, letting the words cross the bar line in various different ways, but never adhering to a basic simple rhythmic conception of the melody. For example starting 8 syllables line on beat 2 and singing quarter notes stopping on count 9 so the guitar could rematar, was perhaps the basic idea that every singer wanted to avoid. So the guitarists were required to keep the beat then let the singer be free to sing the 3 or 4 lines of verse however they want in time. The guitar must simply supply the chord changes on count 10 or 3. (Half compases would be avoided in solea but not bulerias, for no explainable reason other than what was popular with the recording artists back then).
While I visualize this freedom of interpretation as “libre” same as fandangos naturales melody, others might disagree with me. Anyway, it was a striking feature of the old cante to me that was the norm until at least Rito y geografia era. All singers in that program did the same even Mairena. I feel the Fandango por Solea is a good place to see how accompaniment used to work, no push pull by the guitar, the singer simply sang the melody at whatever phrasing and tempo, and the guitar ‘played it as it lies” like in golf. The relationship between the two from the point of view of the listener would result in different opinions of who was good or bad singing compas wise. (Oliver de triana was one considered to have bad compas, but I pointed out he is no different than all the rest in Rito y Geografia, he had a weird guitar player which I will talk about last, and pointed out that with a different player he sang just fine).
So sometime in the 70’s (or earlier?) the baile started to impose structures on the cante and therefore the guitarists regarding the above concept. First thing they did was slow everything down, so the form becomes like a slow motion fight choreography for the sake of drama. You can insert any palo into this concept you want, however we can stick with Solea as the example. LLamadas and counting would have to come into play as important learning tools for communicating these bizarre “choreographies” that required a set music structure. So what next happens is the singers need to learn to SET the melodic structures in stone...so no more singing across the bar lines. This I call “Boxed in” cante. Suddenly the concept of what singing IS or IS NOT in compas takes on a new meaning. Young artists learn the new boxed structures, good singers learn how to deal with it, certain letra types get used more often and others discarded....this is the “evolution” of the cante and it’s accompaniment that would carry forward.
Of course there were artists that remain from the old school and don’t need to do these things. Please watch Chocolate in Flamenco Saura film for example, singing serneta for baile. Not TOO slow, but certainly goes out of the box. I remember people saying he sang “crossed” or “out of compas” for the reasons I stated above. Keep in mind this type of evolution is happening INSIDE the culture so it’s not so clear to see as is my point of view as an outsider. Anyway, as time carried forward we have guitarist that might be of the old guard that understand two worlds of accopanyment....the old way for cante, and the way done for BAILE. The singers that specialized in one way or the other were differentiated. Some guitarists such as Oliver’s in Rito, wanted to box in the cante but not change tempo, so they might have to drop beats if they didn’t like how the cante was laying in time. This makes both performers look bad however so the elastic thing is greatly prefered.
So what’s going on with the elastic thing is this. There is the boxed in conception of the cante structure. If a singer sings in the “old way” across the bar line, the boxed in guitarist has no other way to deal with it than CHANGE the bar lines. They are not adding or subtracting any beats, they are simply pushing or pulling the time so that melody FITS neatly with their preconception of it’s rhythmic structure, AS THEY LEARNED it when playing for baile at some point. This new concept of accompanying has now evolved into it’s OWN concept of interpretations, and we have young singers LEARNING how to push pull the melody and force the guitar to adjust the box around them.....almost completely gone is the old concept of “play it as it lies”. Young singers will hear the old cante on records and such and simply think the old guys had no compas. “Agujetas had no compas” these type of nonsense opinions. As an outside observer the evolution is quite clear to me.
As for the falsetas and phrasing of Diego (NOT MORAITO CHICO) in between his letras, again, no eating or dropping beats, EVERY beat is there, he is simply push pulling the tempos the same way his Great uncle, grandfather, and uncle used to interpret siguiriyas. Of course his great uncle would NEVER do this for Solea, but such is the evolution and trends of the art form.
In your video at 2:40 onwards he skips the beat 4, 5 and 6 and plays one golpe instead. LoL. My impression is as long as Jose Merce knows when the important beats 10, 11 and 12 start and end, he will be okay with that.
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RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
In your video at 2:40 onwards he skips the beat 4, 5 and 6 and plays one golpe instead. LoL.
This is not correct. The tempo is speeding up. All beats acounted for. 10-12 is rushed, 1-3 is rasgueado ending on 3& accenting off beat, held through count 4&5, & of 5 is pull off up stroke, golpe on 6, then it slows back down.
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Steelhead)
Thanks, ppl, especially Ricardo, for these perspectives, and links to other discussions. To some extent there are two different rhythmic liberties going on, one being when the cantaor (especially a few generations ago) starts a tercio—especially the penultimate one, that should have the cambio--around 6 instead of around 1, and the guitarist has to deal with it, typically, as it were, by “fudging” the cambio in the first half of the compás and then re-establishing normality and rule of law in the next compás. Ricardo, you described this much better in a recent post. Then there is the phenomenon of the guitarist alone, like Diego here (right, not Moraito Chico), playing very elastically, just by himself. Interesting and paradoxical how dance affected that in its way, if I understand correctly. Dancers need regular pulse, but in slowing things down, guitarists got used to playing that way and, when not accompanying, started playing elastically. Regarding old-time singers knowing or not knowing compás – I wouldn’t know, I wasn’t there, but I have a quote somewhere in my bookshelf of Antonio Sanchez (Paco’s dad) complaining about well-known cantaores who didn’t know from compás. I wonder if Talega, for example, didn’t know per se that soleá is supposed to be in 12; he had a tendency to sing in 12, felt it intuitively at some level, but on another level was comfortable in 6, and wouldn’t hesitate to start certain tercios (e.g., “se la voy a contar” in the one we were discussing) around beat 6, but Eduardo de la Malena, who did in fact count in 12’s, would adjust while maintaining that 12-beat compás.
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Steelhead)
Speaking of Agujetas, here's one example; he starts out OK ("borde...", from ca. 0:53) but then rushes to the next line ("encinas...") at beat 9, so Moraito plays quite a clear and strong cambio on 1 and 3, then marks time til he can straighten things out in the next compás (right?).
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RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
In your video at 2:40 onwards he skips the beat 4, 5 and 6 and plays one golpe instead. LoL.
This is not correct. The tempo is speeding up. All beats acounted for.
My bad. It was not 2:40. What I was referring to is 2:35-2:40.
Rasgueado 1-3, accent 4, rest on 5, golpe 6. Even more clear than the other part. I’m sure you were confused by the first thing I described because he was rushing the tempo, unlike 2:35
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RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Steelhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Steelhead
Speaking of Agujetas, here's one example; he starts out OK ("borde...", from ca. 0:53) but then rushes to the next line ("encinas...") at beat 9, so Moraito plays quite a clear and strong cambio on 1 and 3, then marks time til he can straighten things out in the next compás (right?).
Yes, he crammed three lines of verse, and along with it the melody, into two compases, almost. He started the Cambio late for a nice perfect half compas, but his cramming allows it to fit across the bar line, so he almost fits the entire thing in before 12, but not quite, at the tempo moraito was playing. “ La nueva” is counts 11, 12, 1. To be fair moraito is doing the typical thing he does for any singer that crosses in that spot. So acting as if that was tricky or weird for him, like he is saving the day, is not correct. He follows blue prints very closely. For comparison Terremoto jr Buleria por solea, almost every letra is handled exactly the same way as this one here for agujetas at the final tercio.
Every letra except last one:
Edit: just wanted to add that after that first letra Agujeta proceeded to sing the most square box polite solea I’ve ever heard him do. He must really respect moraito or something 😂
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RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Steelhead)
Here, this was pulled from the other thread about this subject, I go into detail with the Mairena example where he does one phrase “shifted” and repeats it “correctly” for comparison
quote:
Ok, first line, in the box, a little stretched on the second line but Ok. The repeat of the that part is the same, in the box. What a square. Now the cambio (G-C part) comes in at 0:36....that is count 9 baby. Way out there. Now he repeats the same phrase starting on count 1 like it "should" be, and you can see how darn out of compas it was before. But is that really "wrong" or does he have the freedom to start where ever he wants? What if morao broke the compas on that phrase and let it feel like instead of starting on 9 it started on 1? Would the singer notice or be "mad" about it?
Next verse nice and boxed in until the repeat of the cambio at 1:49 he starts it on 7 instead of 1.
So even Mairena has some freedom to over lay the phrasing as he feels, and the guitarist like Morao feels a need to keep the compas in 12 and just change chords at the end of phrasing (play it as it lies like in golf) either on 3 or 10 mainly. So if he has the freedom, and then you go check out Fernanda doing the same types of things, starting in weird spots and the guitar just holds it together, then why can't we say solea IS somewhat of a free cante that is overlaid in potentially infinite ways on the 12 beat compas???
Now some folks will say, no, what mairena did there was WRONG and perfect example of out of compas singing. I am fine with accepting both view points because, as I said all along I view singing from two camps. Pro/boxed in vs amature/puro/free. The guitarist makes all the distinction if in the end the math is properly in or out of compas.
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Rasgueado 1-3, accent 4, rest on 5, golpe 6. Even more clear than the other part. I’m sure you were confused by the first thing I described because he was rushing the tempo, unlike 2:35
To me, 4-6 is rushed making it sound like there are only 11 beats.
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
To me, 4-6 is rushed making it sound like there are only 11 beats.
I just clapped it out. The compás at 2:35 works fine and is steady -- you might have been thrown off by that lone golpe. The following compás that starts at 2:40, as Ricardo says, is rushed on the 10-11-12, and I found myself having to speed up my palmas to keep up. Now, granted, I am **** at palmas, so make of that what you will
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RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
Rasgueado 1-3, accent 4, rest on 5, golpe 6. Even more clear than the other part. I’m sure you were confused by the first thing I described because he was rushing the tempo, unlike 2:35
To me, 4-6 is rushed making it sound like there are only 11 beats.
I think you are just being thrown off count by what the rasgueado in the first measure is expressing. He is not stopping hard on count 3 as perhaps you are used to. He’s playing through to count 4.
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
Rasgueado 1-3, accent 4, rest on 5, golpe 6. Even more clear than the other part. I’m sure you were confused by the first thing I described because he was rushing the tempo, unlike 2:35
To me, 4-6 is rushed making it sound like there are only 11 beats.
I think you are just being thrown off count by what the rasgueado in the first measure is expressing. He is not stopping hard on count 3 as perhaps you are used to. He’s playing through to count 4.
which video is being referred to here? I tried to follow it back but there are 4 videos in this thread and various others in other threads linked to. Are you still talking about the Merce/morao vid?
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RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
Rasgueado 1-3, accent 4, rest on 5, golpe 6. Even more clear than the other part. I’m sure you were confused by the first thing I described because he was rushing the tempo, unlike 2:35
To me, 4-6 is rushed making it sound like there are only 11 beats.
I think you are just being thrown off count by what the rasgueado in the first measure is expressing. He is not stopping hard on count 3 as perhaps you are used to. He’s playing through to count 4.
which video is being referred to here? I tried to follow it back but there are 4 videos in this thread and various others in other threads linked to. Are you still talking about the Merce/morao vid?
Yes, starting after the salida, 2:35, he plays 3 compases...regardless which of the three you choose there is elastic tempo going on.
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I think you are just being thrown off count by what the rasgueado in the first measure is expressing. He is not stopping hard on count 3 as perhaps you are used to. He’s playing through to count 4.
In this case 1-3 is rushed and he plays the beat 4 accented as you mentioned. One thing for sure is if you tap your foot or count, there are only 11 beats. He repeats the exact same compas at 2:47-2:53 just before Jose Merce starts singing.
Talking about rubato in general, is elastic compas something new in flamenco or did it exist back in the old days? For example did anyone see someone using elastic compas in Rito y geografia series? I understood it's used because of the singer spontanously sings out of compas and the tocaor has to follow. As we saw in the video above, Diego del Morao plays rubato even when the singer is not singing.
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Steelhead)
devilhand, yes I can hear what you're talking about and yes it is common. He's playing off the cuff because it's soleá and he's playing for cante. You can count the 3rd compás in different ways if you want to, either he "sped up" the silence on beats 4 and 5 before the golpe on 6, or he sped up the previous 10, 11, 12 and the rasgueado in the 3rd compás ends on 4 or 3and instead of 3. Either way is academic and completely irrelevant to the performance.
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RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Talking about rubato in general, is elastic compas something new in flamenco or did it exist back in the old days?
Well, I laid that all out in my first reply above ... sorry that it was long, but it’s a complex historical issue. Yes it’s new, and no, they don’t do it in Rito, for solea at least. Elastic tempo however is not new generally speaking... it’s how Malagueñas and cante de las minas evolved from fandango, long before the first wax cylinders were recorded. The early guitar solos (Ramon montoya era), reflect elastic tempos all the time. But the specific issue I was addressing was Solea accompaniment for the cante. THAT specific practice of elasticity is quite a recent development.
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Steelhead)
At the risk of belaboring this topic -- I'm seeing (at least) three kinds of 'departures' (irregularities?) in compás, two of which we've discussed here, viz.: (1) the guitarist, playing alone, renders the compas (e.g., soleá) with elastic rhythm, like Diego here, (2) the singer maybe starts the soleá tercio (typically the penultimate line, with the cambio) around beat 6 instead of 1 and the guitarist maybe shifts the cambio around, while usually maintaining the 12 beat structure. A third type would be: (3) the accompanying guitarist, for no particular evident reason, all on his own, when the singer isn't singing, drops 6 beats, as in this familiar bulerias of Caracol (1:45, right after "ay que doble la campana"), and Caracol continues non-plussed. I suppose this would be most common in bulerías, and of course plenty of examples in solo guitar playing...
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RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Steelhead)
quote:
3) the accompanying guitarist, for no particular evident reason, all on his own, when the singer isn't singing, drops 6 beats, as in this familiar bulerias of Caracol (1:45, right after "ay que doble la campana"), and Caracol continues non-plussed. I suppose this would be most common in bulerías, and of course plenty of examples in solo guitar playing...
This issue happened in solea as well back in the day of montoya and borrull. I have an example of solea de Serneta 1 (standard solea) sung by juan mojama, and montoya turns the 1,2,3,4 into 7-10 feel. While it makes musical sense to continue this practice, it never caught on and instead the patterns used by Melchor and Niño ricardo (keep 12 no matter what) became the standard, for SOLEA. It’s related form “buleria por solea” enjoyed a few interpretations of half compas on the zero verse extensions (compañera de mi alma, etc) of buleria larga melody, and Norman focused some attention to these rare examples on his site www.canteytoque.es.
Caracoles famous letra is simply buleria larga. Nowadays many people call this song “solea por buleria”, though historically this is a misnomer. Niño ricardo would keep 12 for this song when playing at solea tempo (same tempo as buleria POR solea was played), but when laying buleria proper (fast tempo) he and others had no problems with cutting compas the way montoya had done in that one solea. So as I said in my first post here, the trend to keep 12 in solea and buleria por solea (solea por buleria and Alegrias included here) but allow cutting in bulerias, became the standard. No reason other than trends and what was popular thanks to the maestro recordings. Letras of solea, buleria por solea, are often sung as fast as buleria, so the guitarist shouldn’t base the playing only on the lyric. If you take the time to read discussion links discussed above, you can see Antonio carrion is the only modern player who is not afraid of cutting solea compas in half either.
Ok all the above is regarding the old school half compas issue regarding 12 count solea related song forms. I want to make it clear the elastic thing regarding the above is a newer concept. But your (2) concept is over simplified. There are plenty examples, including Mairena I showed above, where the singing might start on any random beat, not only on 1 or 7.
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
There are plenty examples, including Mairena I showed above, where the singing might start on any random beat, not only on 1 or 7.
Is it common to start singing on beat 11? In the video at 19:05, Juan Valderrama's singing starts on beat 11. Talking about starting on the last beats of a previous measure, I wonder if a pickup measure exists in flamenco (both cante and flamenco solo).
quote:
(3) the accompanying guitarist, for no particular evident reason, all on his own, when the singer isn't singing, drops 6 beats
In Solea starting at 18:30, Nino Ricardo drops 3 beats (18:34-18:38). He plays through the beats 1-7. You can hear his golpe on beat 9. So last 3 beats are dropped.
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RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
In Solea starting at 18:30, Nino Ricardo drops 3 beats (18:34-18:38). He plays through the beats 1-7. You can hear his golpe on beat 9. So last 3 beats are dropped.
Oh god, no man. The phrase is repeated exactly right after. Same phrase twice. The problem is whoever edited the film and music missed the first measure of the falseta. You must Count from 4 due to that error.
Starting off 11 is common. However it must be understood first the melodic phrase is traditional and set.... it’s not like they are adding music as in a pick up measure.... the entire melody gets shifted. This plus changing tempo with held vowels= libre singing to my mind. Others can argue a different opinion but it’s quite clear to me what’s going on. Singers in Rito that go in at 11 I noticed were, Perrate de Utrera, Oliver de Triana, Platero de Alcala, fernanda, lebrijano etc....
Why 11? It feels like 1, 4, or 7... in other words, right after an accented beat. Note Valderrama repeats the same phrase the “correct” way the next time on 1. Similar situation as I presented with Mairena example earlier above.
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
You must Count from 4 due to that error.
Yes, you're right. That accented beat 9, which is actually an off beat, turns out to be 12. Everything is ok now.
quote:
Starting off 11 is common. However it must be understood first the melodic phrase is traditional and set.... it’s not like they are adding music as in a pick up measure.... the entire melody gets shifted.
If the entire melody is shifted, the melody will not be in line with chord changes? But in flamenco cante it doesn't seem to be the case.
As for starting on off-beat 11, I thought it might be an anacrusis, which has to occur just before the strong beat 12. For example, traditional Xmas song where the first line starts on an off-beat followed by the strong beat 1 of the next measure. We | wish you a merry... The 3rd line in the same manner. Good | tidings we bring...
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RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
If the entire melody is shifted, the melody will not be in line with chord changes? But in flamenco cante it doesn't seem to be the case.
This is correct, the melody does not align. The only chord changes are on 10. The guitar accompaniment is designed to never lead, but to follow and ANSWER the singer’s melody. In the situation the singer is early, it is ok the guitar is not making the chord change until 10. In the cases where the singer feels late, the guitarist marks 1,2,3 of the next cycle and the needed change of harmony occurs on the accent of count 3. The other chords you hear during the compas of solea are compas markers, not required harmony. All what I wrote above is much simpler in a form like alegria where you only need tonic or dominant sounding chords, but the same compas situation as above applies. Regardless how the cante melody lies in compas, you only need to place the correct harmony on count 3 or 10, depending which is coming up NEXT from where you are at.
This means you need to be familiar enough with the melody of solea or whatever you are accompanying to understand what chord goes where. Letra lyrics are standardized poems, and the melodies are also fairly standard though the singer has room to interpret details (adding melismas) and stretch or constrict the timing. I feel the Mairena example I gave earlier shows how it works, thanks to him repeating a line of verse and showing two different deliveries, and how the guitar delt with it. For further and much deeper understanding, please visit the cante accompaniment thread in the audio uploads section, where we tackle multiple examples of cantes minus guitar, and we add the guitar in. Even if you don’t yet hear the melodies clearly, you can at least play along to the compas track with simple compas playing in order to orient yourself to the FEEL of the phrasing the singers do, while you maintain the compas. That in itself, not even getting specific chord changes but simply keeping compas while someone is singing, is super revealing and educational.
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to Steelhead)
quote:
opinions about rubato playing?
Really great thread, all interesting and useful stuff, especially re cante.
as the original question was about playing I thought I would post this vid up as this has been bugging me since my first flamenco teacher lent me a tape of the album in about '92 or '93. At the time I assumed I just couldn't follow the compas correctly. I have asked various people about it and been told it's perfectly in compas, and that he is speeding up and slowing down (elastic compas) but all the beats are there. I'm not so sure. I have learnt some parts and been unable to figure out how to play it, say to a compas track. I think some of it it is just a little bit libre.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: opinions about rubato playing? (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
opinions about rubato playing?
Really great thread, all interesting and useful stuff, especially re cante.
as the original question was about playing I thought I would post this vid up as this has been bugging me since my first flamenco teacher lent me a tape of the album in about '92 or '93. At the time I assumed I just couldn't follow the compas correctly. I have asked various people about it and been told it's perfectly in compas, and that he is speeding up and slowing down (elastic compas) but all the beats are there. I'm not so sure. I have learnt some parts and been unable to figure out how to play it, say to a compas track. I think some of it it is just a little bit libre.
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