Tip joint in arpeggio

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devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

Tip joint in arpeggio

These days I'm working on my arpeggio. How do you guys execute free stroke in arpeggio?
In arpeggio it's obvious the finger movement must come from the big knuckle. The middle joint is hanging relaxed and bent.

How about the tip joint of the finger? Do you flex your tip joint while plucking the string in arpeggio or do you keep it more or less rigid like in rest stroke?
Many thanks in advance.

EDIT: In rest stroke tip joint is not rigid when plucking the string. What I meant was a straight tip joint. In picado we keep our tip joint relaxed, flexible and thus slightly bent before plucking the string. When the fingertip touches and plucks the string, tip joint gets straight.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2020 11:58:25

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand)

Yes rigid

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2020 17:15:32

devilhand

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Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Ricardo)

I tried both ways (flexed and rigid tip joint). Is it me or is it really difficult to feel/see the difference?
I remember reading a long debate about the mechanics of picado on the foro. The result was the same. Most of the finger movement come from the big knuckle. Tip joint is relaxed but rigid.

Looks like tremolo must be executed in the same way too. If it's true then we have a rule of thumb for picado, arpeggio and tremolo technique.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2020 20:08:53

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand)

Vicente Amigo is unique and used flexed tip joint to execute apoyando AMI arpegios. They literally hyperextended. Paco de lucia granaina he also used flexed tip for the ring finger during ami so ring finger only could do apoyando while m and i were free stroke. It seemed it was a special case as he never used for other ami passages.
3:31 and 5:07

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2020 20:42:25

devilhand

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Vicente Amigo is unique and used flexed tip joint to execute apoyando AMI arpegios.

So he uses AMI picado technique for rest stroke AMI arpeggios? I wonder if his hand position remains the same when switching from picado to arpeggio.

Thanks for the video. Looking at PdL arpeggio, the plucking action of his arpeggio is still elliptical and not circular even if he uses flexed tip joint.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2020 21:37:02

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Looking at PdL arpeggio, the plucking action of his arpeggio is still elliptical and not circular even if he uses flexed tip joint.

Why would it be circular? Also, this use of 'flexed' to actually mean (hyper-)extending back (tip bending away from palm) is really confusing. Maybe you mean 'flexible'.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2020 1:46:44

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Vicente Amigo is unique and used flexed tip joint to execute apoyando AMI arpegios.......

.....Paco de lucia granaina he also used flexed tip for the ring finger during ami so ring finger only could do apoyando while m and i were free stroke. It seemed it was a special case as he never used for other ami passages.

I found it hard to believe Paco only did this once (since it's a common way to give accents within arpeggio when required) so I surged for one of his tarantas arpeggios and when I found one he was doing the exact same thing there :-). Don't know how to add a link with my smartphone. I'm sure he must do it more often.

As Vicentes AMI is concerned, I'm not so sure he plays the full set apoyando. As far as I can judge he's doing the exact same thing as Paco (using A apoyando when an extra accent is required) but since Vicente has the unique habit to always play his i strokes in arpegio apoyando (whether an accent is needed or not) he ends up playing both a and i apoyando. I doubt he also plays the in between m finger apoyando in that setting. As far as his apoyando arpeggio index is concerned, the first time I met Vicente he was 16, played with extremely relaxed/flexible finger tips and as a rule played all his arpeggio i stokes apoyando so it's a habit that dates back to his early years of playing :-). He was on Dutch radio and on Dutch TV that week (that 1983 bulerias TV perfomance was on YouTube for a while) and he gave a concert/demonstration at Rotterdam conservatory which funny enough triggered the director to add flamenco guitar to the conservatories study options 2 years later.

I have pretty flexible fingertips myself and can play apoyando with any arpeggio finger I like (but not 3 on a row). I use it to add selected accents where required and sometimes to imitate the Vicente arpeggio sound :-).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2020 14:29:52

mark indigo

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

Also, this use of 'flexed' to actually mean (hyper-)extending back (tip bending away from palm) is really confusing.

agree!

people use "flex" to mean "bend" in any direction, not in the anatomically correct sense of the opposite to "extend"

Generally, as I understand it, flexion at a joint involves the angle getting smaller, and extension the angle getting bigger, but I think there are some exceptions (can't think what at mo)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2020 16:34:33

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Erik van Goch)

Erik you are correct about Paco sorry, TARANTA falseta from Fantasia uses the same technique (pre dates granaina, so I meant he abandons it since that era):
4:30

But about Vicente, you can slow this down at 2:55 and see he is hyperextending m as well as a and i...in fact at speed it’s a bit of an optical illusion that it remains curved so PLEASE slow it down to .25 and focus on m...it flexes into straight if not hyper extended position rest stroke several times like i although i is simply more visible and more bent back.

Also about “flex”... I understand well what he meant in his question. When we curl the finger into the palm and play, the tip is rigid or stiff. When tip point is relaxed it’s “flexible” and therefore it gives to pressure of the string after apoyando. It may or may NOT hyperextend depending on the individuals physiology, so I’m cool with “flexed” as a description. Pacos a finger doesn’t really hyper extend like vicentes i finger, but the concept there of what’s happening is the same.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2020 17:32:00

devilhand

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

Why would it be circular? Also, this use of 'flexed' to actually mean (hyper-)extending back (tip bending away from palm) is really confusing. Maybe you mean 'flexible'.

Sorry for the confusion. I thought flexed meant the opposite of extended.
At 6:17, what Antonio Rey is doing is what I mean by elliptical plucking action. His tip joints are more or less rigid when his fingertip touches the string. After releasing his fingertip from the string, he flexes his tip joints and his fingertip is directed toward the base joint of his thumb or into the palm. On the other hand, a circular action would be when one flexes tip joints such that the fingertip is directed upward to the big knuckle of the fingers. I think, an elliptical plucking action reqiures a slighter flexion of tip joints than a circular plucking action. What I do is somewhere between the two, which I want to change.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2020 18:18:17

kitarist

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Sorry for the confusion. I thought flexed meant the opposite of extended.

Oh, so you DID mean flexed as in the proper anatomical term! I that case Ricardo's answer is not to that question, as he (and others, including me) thought you were referring to bent back/flexible from the context; you didn't really dispel that with your followup comments either.

Now I don't get what you think you saw in the PdL granaina video Ricardo posted to illustrate his reply.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2020 19:31:10

kitarist

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

Generally, as I understand it, flexion at a joint involves the angle getting smaller, and extension the angle getting bigger, but I think there are some exceptions (can't think what at mo)

Yes, but for less ambiguity flexing/flexion is defined as when the angle between a segment and a proximal segment decreases (proximal = closer to the trunk than the other segment).

This takes care of almost all potential ambiguity, except when you have joints that can move in opposite directions. Then it has to be added that in such cases, as with shoulder joint or neck joint, flexion is when the movement is towards the front (anterior) of the body in the anatomical position.

So curling the tip of a finger towards the inside of the palm is flexion, even though one might say "well, the angle between tip and middle finger segments as measured from the back side is increasing, so why would it be flexion instead of extension?" - because the anterior of the body is primary when forming the angles. In the anatomical position, the open hands are facing the front/anterior, so the angle wold be defined on the anterior side of the finger, which is the palm side.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2020 19:40:21

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2020 19:41:27

Erik van Goch

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From: Netherlands

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

.... about Vicente, you can slow this down at 2:55 and see he is hyperextending m as well as a and i...in fact at speed it’s a bit of an optical illusion that it remains curved so PLEASE slow it down to .25 and focus on m...it flexes into straight if not hyper extended position rest stroke several times like i although i is simply more visible and more bent back.

Unfortunately my computer broke down about a year ago and on my smartphone I can't find the YouTube option to slow down films. But being one of my favorite Vicente pieces I've studied that tarantas quite a lot in the past. I have a more or less similar flexibility as Vicente (my ringfinger and index might be what you seem to call hyperextending) and obviously I have studied my own biomechanics in great detail.

I play my arpeggios with relaxed fingers and when I hit the strings my fingertips bend with the flow. However this flexion, caused by the inpact of string contact, only happens for a split second and as soon as the string is released the fingertip flips back again like "nothing happened". The flexing, caused by that short moment of string contact, is to short to be spotted by eye when done at full speed. So if the string is played tirando the eye won't catch the occurring flexing unless you play it (back) in slow motion. What is visible at full speed is flexing "frozen in time" dude to/during a rest stroke on the neighboring string when playing apoyando. I can't see that happening to Vicentes m finger (which at full speed doesn't even seem to reach that string to start with but that can be an optical illusion as well :-).

Speaking about optical illusion, I unfortunately can't check your findings at slow motion and at full speed the visible lack of "m flexing being frozen in time by a rest stroke" to me seems to sugest m is played tirando..... So I wonder if at slow motion you can visually see the rest stroke itself (meaning physical contact of m with the neighboring string) or deduct there must be a rest stroke because you see flexing of the m finger? The last wouldn't be a smoking gun since flexing also can occur when playing tirando with relaxed flexible fingertips.

Ps, I don't seem to find as many Paco de Lucia YouTube films as I used to. Are that the limitations of my smartphone or are the new European rules restricting YouTube uploads to "own(ed) material only" getting impact?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2020 21:33:50

mark indigo

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Just my opinion but I’ve never known any of these kind of discussions (very granular analysis of the movements of professional players) be any help whatsoever in improving anyone’s technique. Knowing whether Paco, Vicente, Antonio Rey or whoever else flexes or doesn’t flex a particular finger joint will not help you in the slightest bit to become a better player.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2020 22:43:12

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2020 9:04:33

Ricardo

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

So I wonder if at slow motion you can visually see the rest stroke itself (meaning physical contact of m with the neighboring string) or deduct there must be a rest stroke because you see flexing of the m finger?

Yes, m finger is resting on adjacent string. It’s doing the same thing as the a and i fingers. It’s hard to see from that angle unless you slow it way down.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2020 9:45:56

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Do you think people like Paco and Vicente ever wasted their time analysing other people’s finger movements in such a clinical way?

Yes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2020 9:48:36

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2020 10:10:14

devilhand

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rasqeo77

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Do you think people like Paco and Vicente ever wasted their time analysing other people’s finger movements in such a clinical way?

Yes.

Fine but I disagree. I’m sure they observed other players and thought hard about technique but I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about this granular level analysis of tip joints, flexion/extension etc to the nth degree, slowing down videos and all that crap. I don’t believe for one minute they did that. For one thing they didn’t have the technology to do it at the time. I’ve heard Nunez say on numerous occasions something to the effect of “who am I to tell anyone how to do x,y, z...” He’s right.

Of course, people who are in the business of teaching will disagree...

What is bad about a granular analysis of maestros technique? I believe it's a part of a learning process.
I'm not doing this to copy it. I'm doing this to find the way which suits me best.
After I read that every finger movement must come from the big knuckle, I wanted to integrate it to my arpeggio technique. Many sources advocate this.
If you start playing this way, it will feel different and have a big impact on how you pluck the strings and the tone you produce.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2020 18:40:30

devilhand

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

on my smartphone I can't find the YouTube option to slow down films.

On my smartphone it is in the top right corner of the youtube display.

As for the hyperextended finger joints, I'd rather have it in my left i and a finger than in my right fingers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2020 18:43:51

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2020 19:37:54

JasonM

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Guest)

Yeah it feels like both knuckles are at play. Vicente was probably slowing down vhs tapes of Yngwie but gave up and went back to flamenco

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2020 1:45:01

devilhand

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Guest)

quote:

It’s a completely unnatural way of playing arpeggios. There’s also the question of what is even meant by “every finger movement must come from the big knuckle”? The initial impulse? The whole movement? Is that even possible? These kind of didactic statements are potentially dangerous as someone could follow the advice and injure themselves by forcing their body into unnatural movements.

Unnatural way? Maybe. But a correct way of striking the string. Moving fingers from the big knuckle is recommended if you want a fuller and louder sound, less tension and speed. As I mentioned many reliable sources advocate this. To be concrete, middle joint only helps fingertip move in the correct direction. But the main movement must come from the big knuckle.
That's what I got. I started executing picado this way as well. Tremolo will follow.

quote:

The initial impulse? The whole movement? Is that even possible?

Yes, the initial impulse.
The whole movement? I would say the main movement.
Possible? Yes. It's the big knuckle that is responsible for the whole finger movement. Otherwise, you'll end up moving only second half of your finger. Makes more sense.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2020 17:40:53

Piwin

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

picado, arpeggio and tremolo technique

Big knuckle is involved in all of them, but it's not the same mechanics. Arpeggio and tremolo function the same but picado is different. In arpeggio/tremolo, movement does come from the big knuckle, but the middle joint is also involved at the end for the upward movement. That's not the case with picado, where the big knuckle is basically everything. And there is no upward movement involved in plucking the string in picado: you're pressing down. Playing the low E / 6th string picando feels different than tirando.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2020 18:25:44

devilhand

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

And there is no upward movement involved in plucking the string in picado: you're pressing down.

Yes. No upward movement because picado is a rest stroke. I would say tip and middle joint are less involved in picado as you mentioned.
As for the pressing down, you press down the string in all 3 techniques. Recall Scott Tennant's advice for plucking the string, place (plant) - pressure - release.
I added relax to this plucking process to emphasize the importance of relaxing. We can call it 2P2R, which is Place - Pressure - Release - Relax. These 4 words have become my mantra these days.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2020 19:12:51

Piwin

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

No upward movement because picado is a rest stroke

I don't think it's just that. Like I said, picado on 6th string is different from tirando on 6th string. And there's nothing there to rest on. Anyway, I don't know what you're trying to get out of this question so I'll butt out. If it's just about the big knuckle being involved in all three techniques, then sure. But if you're approaching picado and arpeggio/tremolo as the same thing, you're setting yourself up for trouble IMHO.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2020 19:53:01

Ricardo

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Guest)

quote:

I’m talking about this granular level analysis of tip joints, flexion/extension etc to the nth degree, slowing down videos and all that crap.

They didn’t have video back then, but all the old players admit (including nuñez) thst the way they learned falsetas without a teacher directly was by slowing down the turns of the record player. That’s basically the same as slowing a video, though a video is far more revealing. It’s a simple tool for learning like cifra which most Flamenco’s couldn’t read either.

About tip joint specifically I wouldn’t have noticed or cared except I heard about it from a colleague who took private class with paco de malaga. Paco was a close friend and student of Ramon de Algeciras who learned about it from Niño Ricardo. No doubt the granular topic was discussed in the household of PDL. Whether or not the issue holds water or not (is it all crap? It could be....), is beside the point. Not sure why you have such an aggressive push back against a fairly mundane point of technique that’s being addressed here. This is not topic of how to accompany cante with aire.

For the record, the reason for pointing out a slowed video is there is argument about whether a note is being executed apoyando vs tirando. Making a conscious decision to do one or the other is not the argument, it’s about understanding what was done in fact. A student that could not care less whether to play a note rested or free stroke has bigger problems than technique deficiencies.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2020 20:11:57

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

So I wonder if at slow motion you can visually see the rest stroke itself (meaning physical contact of m with the neighboring string) or deduct there must be a rest stroke because you see flexing of the m finger? The last wouldn't be a smoking gun since flexing also can occur when playing tirando with relaxed flexible fingertips

Smoking gun...to be precise I chose the arpegio parts, not the scale runs he slips in at times.

M finger resting on D string

M finger resting on g string with quite a bit of hyper extension

One more resting on g string again

Last one with hyper extension

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2020 20:45:54

mark indigo

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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Piwin)

quote:

In arpeggio/tremolo, movement does come from the big knuckle, but the middle joint is also involved at the end for the upward movement. That's not the case with picado, where the big knuckle is basically everything.

Surely in picado apoyando if the finger only moved at the big knuckle/MCP joint the back of the nail would hit the string when the finger lifted (extended at MCP joint)?

So there would have to have been a small amount of flexion of the middle joint and/or tip joint in order to change the shape of the finger so that when it lifts it doesn't hit the string it just played.

Not suggesting the movement/action is necessarily the same in apoyando and tirando.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2020 21:29:25