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If You Were to Learn Flamenco All Over… Where Would You Begin?
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Lucerom
Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 13 2006
From: Denver, Colorado
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 If You Were to Learn Flamenco All Ov...
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If You Were to Learn Flamenco All Over Again… Where Would You Begin? Or What Would You Have Done Differently?
Would you start off by learning to read music, focus on key techniques (resqueos, tremolo, alzapua, etc…), or focus on learning the fret board, etc?
I feel overwhelmed. There is so much to learn, so little time, and so many different approaches. I don’t know the names of the notes on the fret board, scales, how to build a chord, modes, etc. Yet, I do know how to play a hand full of songs (although with little confidence). The more I learn, the more I find that I need to backtrack.
I bartended for 2 ½ years at a Tapas Bar here in Southern California, became roommates with a lead guitarist in a local Rumba Flamenca band, and began to take flamenco guitar lessons, all while I was in college. As a result, I have a pretty good ear and feel for flamenco. Then I took about 2 years off to help my wife get out of college.
6 months ago I pulled by guitar out of the closet, dug up my old flamenco teacher’s number and began to take lessons again. I really like my teacher, but most of what he teaches has a 1960’s feel to it (a bit stale for my taste). His teaching approach is focused more on learning songs than technique or theory. Also, he tends to go back and forth from flamenco to classical guitar. Nevertheless, his lessons are affordable, I am learning some songs (although I don’t play them very well), he’s a real nice guy, and he’s practically the only flamenco teacher in “The OC”. So, I’ve recently purchased “Learning the Classical Guitar” Parts 1 and 2 by Aaron Shearer, in hopes of filling the gaps in my musical instruction.
So Maestros, do you have any suggestions? I would just like my learning curve to start sloping in an upward direction, not down or flat. I know you’ve all been there.
PS. I have about 1 hour or practice time set aside each day and I have purchased an array of the latest learning materials to aid my learning, such as Oscar Herrero, Graf-Martinez, and Juan Martin.
Sorry for the long post
_____________________________
“Think Outside the Cajón”.
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Date Feb. 15 2006 18:37:14
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Gecko
Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico
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RE: If You Were to Learn Flamenco Al... (in reply to Lucerom)
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Again, like you I'm relatively new to flamenco guitar, so please understand where I'm coming from.
Yes, you can get the feeling that you are overwhelmed. I think most of us felt that way when starting. But, lets put it, the study of music of any kind, in perspective. That is, its a lifelong pursuit, IMHO and not something that is done/accomplished in a month or two. Moreover, your learning curve will not always slope upward. It will plateau and even digress on occasion
You say you have little time. What do you mean by that? If you mean that you think you should be playing solid, up to speed flamenco in compas or classical, grade 8 stuff in 6 months or a year, then its time for a reality check.
Where do you want to go with your music? Professional, or simply for your own enjoyment?
Here is my story, and I'm sticking to it. In my misspent youth I played a lot of 6 and 12 steel string. Then I quit for over 20 years. I retired to New Mexico, USA and became enamored with the Hispanic culture here including flamenco and, shutter nuevo-flamenco. So, I thought I'd give it a shot. Well I soon learned that I could not learn flamenco on my own and began searching for a teacher. Nada, but I did find a good classical teacher and went with that. That was over 18 months ago and in that time I have learned some theory, standard notation, the prerequisite techniques, etc and am now able to play grade 5 & 6 pieces, some of it even sounds half-way decent. My teacher never presented me with a piece of music with tabs always the sheet music and constantly grilled and tested me on scales, standard notation, playing techniques and he still does. Then too, I spend at least 3 hours a day, 7 days a week practicing or studying.
I never touched flamenco again until about 6 months ago. You know what? It is now exponentially easier for me. Sure, I had and continue to go back to learn some of the flamenco peculiar techniques and God only knows if I will ever learn proper compas. Regardless, my classical instruction has and continues to serve me well. However, as some members here know, that because of the classical I'm a little too ridged in my interpretations.
Can one play flamenco without the knowledge of theory, standard notation, etc? Yes, I would think so and I believe historically that was how it was done, handed down by example, etc. However, I for one get much more enjoyment out of it knowing some of the theory behind it, being able to actually read the notes, time and key signatures and rt hymn structures, knowing what all those little funny lines on a score actually mean, etc.
So, it would seem to me its kind of up to you. You can jump in and just play the music if you are able to, using tabs, or you can bit the bullet and learn some of the things that makes what you are playing, "music." Now if you are interested in this approach then let me know and I will be happy to provide you with a suggested curriculum in general terms.
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Date Feb. 15 2006 20:26:28
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: If You Were to Learn Flamenco Al... (in reply to Lucerom)
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Lucerom,
I don't know that I'm any further along than you, but my advice is to take it easy on yourself. LA wasn't built in a day, and neither will be your skills. Allow me to add a few thoughts:
1. The foundation of flamenco, and probably all popular/folk music, is rhythm. Can you play for dancers/dance classes once a week or more? It might seem a sacrifice, but it might be the best thing you ever do.
2. How's your ear? The ear will give you the ability to play whatever song you want. The ear is comprised of: The ability to hear and understand (which is a prerequisite to executing) rhythms, the ability to hear and understand changes (chord progressions), and melodies. You can start out by finding a very simple piece or a simple part of a piece and just spend some time on figuring out these elements. Don't expect to be able to do this overnight, but eventually it should happen quickly for you.
3. Because of your age and background, I think you should learn a little music theory. I think you should confine it to this: a) learn how to make major and minor chords, b) learn what keys are, c) learn the major and minor scale, d) learn the harmonic minor scale. You can find all of this by Google. It will help you to mentally organize the knowledge you need to accumulate.
4. Hang out with other musicians. This is essential. You say there's only one teacher in the OC, but I doubt that. Go to every flamenco performance, tapas bar, etc., and make friends with the guitarists. A good way is to take lessons from them for awhile. Then you can ask to join them on stage or at practices. "It's not what you know, it's who you know." Most of my gigs are from friends that I got in just this way. Also, you will learn more from hanging out and watching musicians than from every Graf-Martinez, Juan Martin, etc. DVD you can buy. And it may end up just costing you a Bohemia or a Heineken or two.
5. Start simple and let your technique spring from easy things. I began to learn and improve quickly when I had to make a repertoire quick. I arranged a bunch of songs, much simpler and easier than things even Juan Martin plays. The funny thing is I found they still sounded good and they helped me concentrate on rhythm, accuracy, and performance. If you start very easy and play easy things until they are second nature, "virtuoso" variations will make a lot more sense and will come from a good foundation, the only way to really execute them. This will prevent "intermediate guitarist blues," that horrible stage that many enter, and few leave.
Your mileage will vary....I'm no Paco, just a guy trying to improve myself. Good luck...and remember....aay ay ay ay ay ay!!! :)
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Feb. 15 2006 20:30:21
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Mark2
Posts: 1874
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: If You Were to Learn Flamenco Al... (in reply to Lucerom)
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I'd start by studying Spanish, and the compas of tango, solea, bulerias, and alegrias, then the other forms like sig, fandango, sevillanas, tientos, etc. I'd learn to do basic palmas for these before worrying too much about playing compas on the guitar. At the same time I'd be learning the chord inversions that are common to these forms, and practise changing between these chords, finding out on which beats of the compas to change chords. Once I had a handle on these things, I'd get into a dance class where I'd sit with a more experienced guitarist and learn more chords from him, and try to pick up what I could. I'd be putting in long hours practicing the basic techniques of rasquedos, picados, alzapua, arpeggio, tremelo, pulgar, using simple falsetas as exercises as well as classical guitar exercises. I'd be using a metronome or a compas aid, like a midi file. At this time I'd be listening to records and trying to hear the relationship between the melody the singer is singing and the chords that are being played. I'd be working on transcribing simple falsetas and also the chord inversions used to accompany specific letras and melodies. I'd try to be able to at least hum, if not sing, these letras in compas while I accompanied myself. I'd hope to make the jump to playing for the class by myself at this point. Once I could play for a class and accompany some basic dances, if I had not already, I'd go to Spain to continue. If I wanted to be a professional, and felt that I had the time, money, and talent to do so, I'd try not to leave. The whole time, from the very beginning, I would be studying with a teacher whose style I liked, and who demonstrated by regular performances that he was familiar with accompanying cante and baile, as well as capable of performing an at least interesting, if not astounding, solo. I would also expect him to be able to show me the simpler falsetas of the guitarists I liked and, in an ideal world, be able to explain the theory behind the music, be able to guide me in the composition of my own falsetas, be able to help connect me with other guitarists, singers, and dancers at or near my level, and give me opportunities to perform when the time was right. He would also hopefully instruct me on other matters related to the business of music, the politics of getting work, and the mental preparation needed to successfully perform in public. I wouldn't expect to get all that from the same guy, and would be open to changing teachers as the need and opportunities arose. I would also not forget about basic music theory, including chord and scale construction, and basic harmony. At that point, might as well learn to sight read just for kicks- might want to play other music once in a while or do other kinds of music jobs, so why not learn to read? Sounds simple, if only I had known it all 20 years ago..............or actually 30 years ago.
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Date Feb. 15 2006 21:03:05
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Gecko
Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico
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RE: If You Were to Learn Flamenco Al... (in reply to Lucerom)
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Lucerom:
Thought I'd give you a reference point in where I'm at after about 6 months. Bear in mind my practice is split between classical and flamenco.
I have worked my way through Graf-Martinez Vol 1, up to exercise 10, Manton IV. Here I realized I knew little about the Hammer On/Off technique used. So I am now doing Juan Martin, Solos Flamenco, grade 0, exercise 1, Primera Solea. Today I finished learning the notes and fingerings, took me about 3 days, so now I'll spend the next week, or so, practicing the technique and developing some marginally acceptable speed.
BTW G-M's Estudio por Solea, exercise 3 and Juan Martin's Primera Solea can be played as one single piece together and sounds pretty good! I don't know if its proper to do this. However, its kind of fun
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Date Feb. 15 2006 21:34:10
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Lucerom
Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 13 2006
From: Denver, Colorado
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 RE: If You Were to Learn Flamenco Al... (in reply to Lucerom)
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Thank you all for your sincere and invaluable responses. You just can’t get this type of feedback in a book or DVD.
I think Aaron Shearer said it best in his book Learning the Classical Guitar, “Our ultimate goal is to perform, whether it is in front of a large audience, friends, family, etc”. Ultimately, I’d just like to play at a coffee shop, with friends, and even with dancers from time to time. I was able to perform a Rumba once with my roommate’s band 4 years ago and just recently "Campanilleros" for a talent show at my company Christmas party. The rush you get from performing is like the rush you get from a roller coaster ride. Frightening at first, but incredible once you get going.
I think Gecko and I are on the same wavelength. I’m an analyst by nature, so I always seek to know why things are done, how to improve them, and what is the most efficient and effective method. But, I understand there must be a balance between knowing the music and feeling the music. Playing guitar is a lot like dancing. While I was a bartender I used to watch people dance Salsa. The most enjoyable dancers to watch were the ones that focused on the rhythm of the music, improvised, and made a point of having fun. I think this is what creates “aire”, no? The dancers I couldn’t stand to watch were the ones that took things far to serious, counted every step, and never tried anything new. Based on your responses, I’m going to focus on basic music theory (like those suggested by Miguel de Maria.), flamenco techniques, and work through my teacher’s material (such as Colombianas, Love Story, and Panaderos). Then, when I feel a bit more comfortable and have a bit more to offer, I’ll seek out the dance studios and hook up with my old roommate. Like they say, “The way you eat an elephant is by taking one bite at a time”. So I see that Flamenco is a way of life and I plan to live it.
I think I’ve got a great ear for the different palos and compas, and plenty of material/resources. Now it’s time to play.
Un montón de gracia compañeros
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Date Feb. 16 2006 19:39:02
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Gecko
Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico
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RE: If You Were to Learn Flamenco Al... (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Gecko,
If I might butt in here..
I think anybody coming from a Classical guitar background probably has the hardest time as they look for "logical" reasons around rhythms and falsetas in terms that they have been used to.
I think it's best starting from scratch and not trying to view things from a prior background IMO.
But musically, you've got to approach Flamenco with no preconceived ideas IMO.
cheers
Ron
Ron:
You're points are well taken. Almost daily I find myself being too ridged, particularly when it involves compas, or phrasing. I even struggle with phrasing in classical. Maybe I need to dump the metronome.  But thankfully and due to a lot of help from people here, I think I'm progressing. In addition my particular learning style is very, very sequential and analytical ( I don't remember if that's called left or right-brained). Regardless, this style of learning works well for me for some things and not so well for others.
On-the-other-hand I don't think a could have possibly progressed to the point I'm currently at, which I'm pleased with, without 1: an actual flamenco guitar instructor, which I have been unable to find without driving 150 miles, one way or 2: some classical training and an instructor which I do have.
I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on the importance of theory and foundations. 
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Date Feb. 17 2006 11:23:24
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: If You Were to Learn Flamenco Al... (in reply to Gecko)
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Gecko, Lucerom, et al..
Sometimes when I post stuff, I try to say too many things at the same time and even drift off the original point LOL!
(Ask Simon...I'm like that on the phone as well..he keeps making me finish my original point before moving on..  )
OK..the core of what I was trying to say is that a lot of novice Flamenco guitarists already have a pretty good guitar technique from Classical etc.
Now take something ...say..Alegrias...you only need to know 3 chords!
With these 3 chords and a few traditional CD's you can practise compás, all kinds of rasgueado...even some basic accompaniment!
With a few traditional thumb falsetas, you can entertain yourself for hours like this and learn a LOT.
Bash away with a loop or Flamenco metronome and try to make it sound good, with crisp, snappy chord changes and as rhythmically as you can.
This IMO is much more important than trying to work slowly through some tabs of a solo with tremolo on the second string and awkward picado string changes.
Most beginners already have mucho LH technique.
Now the playing of Alegrias with good rhythm and good clean rasgueados is something that you are going to NEED to know...you can't just skip it!
It's not something you can ignore.
Most Flamenco palos only have a few basic chords at their root.
Again, you have to learn these basic forms and be able to play each in compás and with a sense of rhythm or swing.
Practising just chords, rhythm and rasgueado is not a waste of time.
Sure...take a break and play around with a little free form stuff, Tarantas and Rondeña, Granaina for fun and enjoy those lovely, full sounding chords.
Also practise some basic alzapua, arpegio, picado and tremolo exercises...
But just playing rhythm with basic chords will set you up well for learning quicker and seeing how falsetas fit in better.
For fun try some the Gypsy Kings' style Rumba strumming/rasgueado.
The rhythm is basic and it will help develop good timing and syncopation skills.
There is bags of stuff you can do just with rasgueado and chords to keep you occupied for ages and you'll be well set up if you get a chance of playing at a dance school.
Anyway this is my view on things, no doubt the younger guys hear Vincente etc and love the stuff and want to learn it...but Vincente can do all this basic stuff extremely well...OK, he plays his advanced stuff on CDs etc...but he still knows it and can play traditional thrash and bash stuff very well if required!
I wasted heaps of time learning and composing Tarantas etc and trying to play note perfect with nice clean tremolo etc.
Really wasted time.
Now that I've gone back to the basics and trying to play them as well as I can, I now feel that I'm at last making some good, solid progress.
cheers
Ron
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Date Feb. 17 2006 17:03:20
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