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I'm Back: Dissertation Blues
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Beni2
Posts: 139
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
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 I'm Back: Dissertation Blues
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Hello all,
This is Kevin. Used to love the foro. I got burnt out because I always tried to bring my academic interests and background into the conversations and that went wonderfully awry. Let's try this again. I have missed the foro but I spent quite a bit of time with anxiety and depression brought about in part because of the stress of pursuing an advanced degree but also divorce. My unsolicited advice...don't get divorced, unless she's an axe murderess (Woman...whooaa man!). Also, don't get anxiety or depression, which means don't watch the news and don't live in your head.
Anyway, gotta keep pushing forward. ABD, ALL BUT DISSERTATION. So close and yet so far. I have a few questions about foreigners and non-Spaniards doing flamenco. I wonder if you'd be so kind to copy, paste, and answer them. They are self-explanatory I believe but if you have questions, PM me. The questionnaire might evolve as responses require. This is the base.
One of the questions has to do with the first falseta of Paco's "Gloria" solea. I am embedding that falseta here.
For those who help (and those who don't) thank you.
Kevin
QUESTIONAIRE FORO
1) General
a) Name/age Kevin Romero 48
b) Brief Bio: Discovered flamenco when I needed an elective credit to finish a classical guitar degree. Albuquerque, NM is the Mecca of flamenco in the US with the longest running festival, the only bachelors and masters degree programs in dance, sponsorship of the university toward flamenco events and the festival, and a tablao built specifically for flamenco. That is not to say it is perfect, it is dance-centric. I took a class in order to complete that degree and it landed up being with a master musician from Jaen. To me, a great flamenco, but the most well-rounded, best musician/guitarist I have ever met. PC might not be the “top-dawg” in flamenco but I haven’t met anyone as well rounded as an improviser, composer, and musician across styles. I also studied with JV for a couple of years. My one regret, because I love cante so much, is never having been to Spain.
c) Questions about flamenco
d) How did you discover flamenco? See above
e) Are you a participant in flamenco in a community (weak/moderate/robust) of flamencos? Albuquerque, NM was the strongest community I participated in. Denver, Colorado was good for dance and was evolving when I was there. No institutional support though. San Diego has its moments and some good artists but very clique-ish and isolated. Not healthy in my opinion.
f) Do you also travel to Spain? I haven’t been.
g) Do you take online courses? My weakness is in cante accompaniment and that cannot be taught online. It has to be experienced because part of good accompaniment is the synergy, the playing off of each other and that requires sight and sound. You have to see the singer’s bodily gestures as well as listen to the voice. Occasionally I’ll take an online class but I have so much material that my larger problem is maintaining a productive practice regimen.
h) What other media do you use extensively (i.e. youtube, skype, book/CD)? I use youtube all the time and transcribe, notate, and note different variations on accompaniment and solo playing.
i) At what level do you consider yourself to be? Eternal beginner
2) Embodiment/Acculturation/Transculturation
a) Flamenco is an art and culture associated with gitanos and Andalusians. For those outside of Spain we try to “walk the walk and talk the talk.” How important is Andalusian Spanish to your experience? I make the argument that much can be learned through bodily gesture, and language need not be a barrier. However, I also think that flamenco is better embodied the more Andalusian flavor is adopted. Paco said many times that flamenco must smell of Andalucía.
i) Did you speak Spanish previously? Yes, horribly. It is the language of my family but unfortunately, they experienced enough racism and oppression that their generation did not pass it on. I have had to recuperate as much of it as possible. I speak Camanolusian (Castilian/’manito [New Mexican Spanish]/Andalusian).
ii) Does it affect lessons and understanding or can/does verbal communication get bypassed in favor of mimicry and bodily communication? Large amounts of culture are transmitted through language. As an ethnomusicologist my inclination is toward a middle-ground.
b) Aside from learning the Andalusian dialect and your bodily skill/art (i.e. toque, baile, cante), are there other cultural elements that you perceive as being important for embodying flamenco? This is a tough question. As an aficionado I prefer Spanish flamenco. I do believe there are artists across the world that do flamenco well. I never have the same feeling with them though. That is not an attack or critique because they are often great artists in theor own right. I just know that I feel differently when I walk into a theater where Spanish artists are performing, I feel differently. I think those that have consciously or subconsciously picked up a broad range of behaviors and knowledge are closer to “the real thing.”
i) How do you balance the preservation of flamenco as a primarily (gitano) Andaluz art and culture with your desire to develop your sello propio (personal seal)? It could be that I put too much emphasis on the gitano origins of flamenco. Although, I will say that I do make some controversial observations about how flamenco came together and the problems with studying its history. This is primarily a musical/musicological question though, so, I think you can’t be afraid. My second teacher had a box full of recordings of “throwaway” material. I promise it was more flamenco than he probably thought it was. That is when I learned, if you scrap your own compositions, save them for later, on paper or disc. As you grow, either the idea might be modifiable, or your attitude towards it might evolve. BE YOU!
ii) Do you feel that learning other aspects of Andalusian and/or gitano culture make you a better flamenco/a? If so, what elements (e.g. cooking, posture, dress, language use, etc)? This is also a tough question. If you erased all gitano involvement would flamenco be what it is? I want to say no. I don’t believe cooking is going to make you a better musician. However, I feel like lo Andalúz is like a spice that, when it’s missing, is noticed.
c) The term “flamenco” was used as a synonym for gitano before it came to describe an artistic-musical culture associated with them. Do you identify as flamenco? I don’t identify as flamenco because it seems too closely associated/synonymous with “gitano.” Out of respect, I don’t call myself that. However, I do say that I play flamenco, that I am a flamenco aficionado, and that much of my life is spent listening to, studying, and trying to be flamenco.
i) Does it ever give you pause? Yes
d) How many hours a day do you practice and what is your regimen like? Practice? While in graduate school, and with some personal issues? I wish. At the tail end of graduate school, I do have some time now; two hours a day until I am completely finished with the degree. Then hopefully six to eight…who knows.
e) Detail as much as possible. How often do you take lessons and how do you interpret/use new material in practice? I do transcribe a lot. Much of that work is transcription of material I already now in one key or palo to another key or palo.
3) History of Flamenco
a) How were you introduced to the history of flamenco? Don Pohren and Claus Schreiner
i) What is your take on it regarding the gitano and/or Andalusian roles in its creation and diffusion? Controversial, but if one is going to take a particular stance then one should utilize supporting evidence. For example, Antonio Mairena claimed that flamenco was a mix of cultural elements including hindu, Arabic, and Sephardic music and possibly Byzantine chant, among others. He never details what aspects or elements originate in each culture, however. Don’t want to address this here. I talk about this in the dissertation.
ii) Give an impromptu account of what you know of flamenco history detailing as much as you can. Again, I don’t want to reveal/share too much. However, I do look at how the Baroque guitar and the popular/folk guitar influenced flamenco guitar playing, including falsetas, paseos, rajeo, etc.
iii) Do you know more about your field’s history (i.e. baile, toque, cante) or is your knowledge general? I would say I now most about Spanish guitar history and how the flamenco guitar fits within that, but I have also learned a lot about the history of the gitano migration and the Moorish presence in Spain after the expulsion. So much to piece together. Flamenco is a lifelong process. So is music theory/analysis. So is historiography…
Onward!
b) Do you believe that historical knowledge in any way enhances your bodily/artistic knowledge? Yes. If so, how? However (in)significant, I have incorporated some of the music of Julián Arcas. Although he was not flamenco as that term is understood today, his soleá was a model for Montoya. I use some of his “falsetas” in my soleá.
c) If you are aware of the multiple cultures that have been said to contribute to flamenco’s aesthetics and character, can you name specific techniques, emotions, rhythms, and their perceived origins? This is a tough question as well. One argument I did not make concerning alzapua, just because I could not find a place for it, is that it might have its origins in oud playing. Pua translates as “plectrum” and the thumbwork of flamenco guitarists looks very much like the technique oud players use. As for emotion, some of the predecessors of the solea and siguiriya are seemingly Sephardic (endecha). Does that mean that the siguiriya is not gitano? Not necessarily, but as a historical matter it is useless to say flamenco is a mix of cultures but then not explore how the cultural elements came together.
4) Soleá/Lament
a) The siguiriya and soleá are considered cante jondo (deep song). They are genres of grief, despair, solitude (although the soleá allows for a broader range of emotions to be reflected in the lyrics).
i) How is this reflected in the cante? Vocal inflections
ii) Toque?
iii) Baile?
b) There is a debate about the historical suffering of the gitanos and their way of emoting. The debate centers on who can emote and why. Do you believe that anyone can tap the emotions required for the interpretation of the deep genres? In the toque? Baile? Cante?
i) How do you evoke the emotions for delivering your artistic self in the deep genres?
c) Are there certain letras (lyrics) that trigger grief, despair, or sadness for you? No, it is usually the vocal inflections that trigger an emotiona response for me, not the actual lyrics. Although, occasionally, a lyric will make me think.
i) Can you list one or two?
d) What about vocal techniques?
i) Are there any particular vocalizations that invoke these deep emotions? I don’t want to give away some of my original research but vocal inflection has a lot to do with emoting and the evocation of emtion in flamenco song.
ii) Can these same “sad” emotions be triggered in other lighter genres? Yes, through the vocal inflections and their melodic contours.
5) Guitar: practice, theory, and analysis
a) Do you believe music theory can be a helpful toolkit for composition, analysis, and interpretation? Theory, analysis, and practice are a triad. Absolutely useless, one without the other. I will leave this for the dissertation as well. It depends on how one understands and defines and conceptualizes theory.
b) Are you aware of the three tonalities in flamenco? Yes
c) Have you been exposed to the nuances in the definitions of tonality and modality? These concepts are highly problematic the way they are taught at the undergraduate level.
d) Can you define, describe, explain? I am looking for your answers.
e) Do you have a grasp of what hemiola is? Define it in your own words? Same as above
f) Do you know what a descending tetrachord is? What about the Andalusian Cadence? Same as above
g) If you have some experience with theory and analysis, can you share your analysis with performance notes of the first falseta from Paco de Lucía’s “Gloria al Niño Ricardo?”
6) Intertext
a) Intertextuality is the idea that texts or fragments of texts can be transposed and put to new uses. For example, in Shelley’s Frankenstein, epigraphs, quotations, and allusions are borrowed from multiple sources in the service of thickening the plot, character development, and framing the moral of the new novel. In flamenco, cierres, llamadas, falsetas, and other gestures can be strung together in new ways in new instances of accompaniment or solo. Can you think of instances where someone quotes someone else’s falseta? My favorite example of this is Paco quoting himself live por bulerias in 2010 I believe. He plays a bulerias in which he seamlessly moves between falsetas in Am, C# phrygian, and A phrygian. Many clichés in solea are quotations of or are built on Arcas solea. Quejio? Paso? Within a genre (same key)? Across tonalities? Across genres?
b) Alain Faucher takes some liberties with phrasing in his flamenco guitar transcriptions. Do you know of any instances in which someone uses his transcription verbatim including possible questionable phrasings? The guy who does Atrafana plays Faucher’s transcription of Gloria. In it, Faucher begins one of the falsetas on beat one. To me, it could be interpreted that way. It works, but I hear it as accentuating the compass beats (12-3-6-8-10).
c) One type of intertext that has a long history in Spanish vihuela/guitar is the intabulation, or arrangement of a multi-vocal work for guitar. Josquin’s Mille Regretz is arranged by Luys de Narváez, for example. Do you know falsetas in any palo that are more or less arrangements of the cante? I know in one of Worm’s books on tangos/tientos that there is a falseta por tientos of Enrique de Melchor that is an intabulation of the melody of “Le hablo con mi dios y le difo.”
d) Are you aware of some of the passages por soleá that are so common they are clichés? I am thinking of Herreros pedagogical materials here. He talks about clichés. There is a long history for these clichés and their function in strummed Spanish dance accompaniment.
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Date Mar. 26 2019 19:36:33
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flyeogh
Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
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RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Also don’t be afraid to be foreign, simply strive to do your best and be respectful of others at different points in their journey. Well said that man 
Beni2 as Ricardo says that needs time and thought. But thanks and for sure I’m going to have a go.
Just a quick thought on non-spanish flamenco people. My first guitar was built by the man from Denmark (Anders), my first lesson from a Brazilean in London, many years ago a great lesson with a Scot (Jim Opher some may remember) in Glasgow where he played in a Russian restaurant, my current luthier is Argentine.
Don’t think being non-spanish stopped their enthusiasm and dedication towards flamenco.
On the other-hand of all my extensive Spanish family one plays bagpipes and none think much of flamenco!! 
ps: When I have a lesson I wander to the station, saying "buenos días" to my neighbours, normally in Andalucian sunshine, I walk through the old streets of old Jerez, I pass through a traditional spanish internal patio fully tiled and full of plants, am greeted by a man who couldn't look more flamenco, and shown into a room with guitars, music, ……………
If that doesn't get me in the mood nothing will  I always spare a thought for those who love flamenco but live isolated from it. Their dedication is something special.
_____________________________
nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
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Date Mar. 27 2019 7:50:28
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Beni2)
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quote:
Why do you think the use of Roman numerals is BS?
And why do you prefer this modal terminology (lydian)? Also, not sure what you mean by "tier."
My one response is that I believe theory is part of a triad, no pun intended (practice-theory-analysis). Without analytical explanation theory is useless, and theory must be tethered to practice. For the people that believe that theory sterilizes practice, three words: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven. All of them were aware of theoretical treatises of their times.
It’s “BS” to use them for this music, it is meant for tonal classical musical analysis, which this music is NOT. So it’s like forcing one discipline upon another IMO. Further, the concept of using Roman numerals is designed to reducing all music to the V-I or other such cadence. In flamenco forms like Solea, what happens is we are thinking that the equivalent to V-I has to be II-I...which is confusing. Secondary dominant functions become odd to read...V/iii is read “Five of three” meaning, in C major, a Bmajor chord functioning as the Dominant chord to the Eminor iii chord. Makes sense, but now we need to allow for the similar use of the II chord...so “two of seven” or II/vii, in por medio, is an Ab chord, acting as dominant to the G minor....but we know it’s really gonna be G major.
That leads to my use of the term “tier”. In classical, when you have modulations, you have to stack your analysis as such...the key you were just in above, secondary dominants and such, and directly underneath you say the new key with : then line up under the top analysis with the equivalent Roman numerals of the new key....then continue with Roman numeral “I” refering to the new key until it goes back or somewhere else, then you have to do that stacking of double analysis all over again each time it modulates. So I call that “second tier” analysis as you have to actually write both sets of chords. If you opt to do some funky thing with the Roman numerals, or avoid secondary dominant functions and do things like “bIII-II” for example, well you are defeating the purpose of the Roman numeral analysis and should just do away with it all together.
Another thing could be done is to make analysis as if Solea is phrygian dominant, ie, in Aminor but rename the Aug6 type chord function and allow for a special case “Spanish 6th” in place of the II-I cadence. Yet another stretch of imposing disciplines, but at least it might align with classical approach to analysis. Final complex option, is analysis of Solea as if it is E major, and so it’s all borrowed chords, tritone subs, etc....very messy but works as well.
Finally about the modal terminology. Again, we are mixing disciplines here so I am using the modal terms in the following manner.... If we were to have a song in C major say, a jazz student will recognize the related scale/melody to it’s chord has a specific mood or color. A ii-V-I cadence therefore becomes a mix of Dorian, to Mixolydian, to Ionian, all relating to C major. From that vantage point the jazz student may opt to switch out different modes for interesting colors....in effect re harmonizing the piece in the process. For example, D aeolian flat 5->G super locrian->C lydian, instead. So a flipped over way to see it is this....a melodic passage described as G Mixolydian, can also be looked at as a pull toward the resolution of C major....regardless if it actually goes there or not, because it is indistinguishable on it’s own from a melody occurring over top the dominant V chord in the key of C major.
In flamenco, a similar thing is done using the lydian mode over the II chord to suspend the resolution to the phrygian tonic we all know is coming eventually. It becomes a simple way to describe both melody and harmonic funtion in context. Of course it is not LITERALLY “lydian” as in the static mode concept, however it’s a quick way to describe the direction the flamenco player’s music might be headed in. In your example of Paco, “Eb lydian” is a clear indication that we are headed “por abajo” if you get my drift, a significant modulation away from “por Arriba”....even if it had never hit the D chord I think the DIRECTION the music is headed in becomes clear. I could just as easily do away with my modal terminology and say “paco now plays a melodic falseta “por abajo” over top of the Eb chord.” And the same information is conveyed. Hope that clears it up.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Mar. 28 2019 3:13:41
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
I am waiting for my Irish passport so we can move to Italy for the next adventure I want to stay in Europe. Spain was an option but my wife is Mexican and not supportive of that. She hates bullfighting, the accent and treatment of stray animals. She also doesn't like flamenco, so Italy is the best we can agree on.
In my opinion Italy is a good choice, Simon. Except for the lack of flamenco, I think Italy is overall a better choice as a place to anchor one's self than Spain. Know any Italian? Anyway you can learn it, along with lots of history and culture. At least you will escape the Brexit chaos.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 28 2019 12:10:28
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Beni2)
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1) General
a) Name/age Piwin, early 30s
b) Brief Bio: international mongrel who grew up mainly in France
c) Questions about flamenco
d) How did you discover flamenco? There were some rumberos in the Church I attended as a kid. Later in my teens I discovered Paco de Lucia’s CD “Luzia”. I only really got into it in my 20s while travelling to Spain to learn Spanish.
e) Are you a participant in flamenco in a community (weak/moderate/robust) of flamencos? Yes (robust).
f) Do you also travel to Spain? Yes.
g) Do you take online courses? I have taken a couple in the past but it’s not at all central to my learning of flamenco. I still have access to material that is only available online, which I use from time to time (recorded courses).
h) What other media do you use extensively (i.e. youtube, skype, book/CD)? Lots of youtube, basically zero skype, lots of CDs and a select few books (Granados series and Encuentro series are the two I still consult).
i) At what level do you consider yourself to be? “Advanced beginner” which just means beginner but I'm trying to flatter my ego by convincing myself that I don't suck as much as I did 8 years ago.
2) Embodiment/Acculturation/Transculturation
a) Flamenco is an art and culture associated with gitanos and Andalusians. For those outside of Spain we try to “walk the walk and talk the talk.” How important is Andalusian Spanish to your experience? Spanish is important. Some degree of understanding of the more common traits among various Andalusian dialects is also helpful, but I don’t think anyone can be expected to command all of them, not even the locals.
i) Did you speak Spanish previously? Not really. I started learning Spanish a few months before I got into flamenco.
ii) Does it affect lessons and understanding or can/does verbal communication get bypassed in favor of mimicry and bodily communication? At the beginning it did, but we made do with gestures and the like. Now it’s never much of a problem. From time to time I may have to ask the teacher to repeat or clarify something but that’s the extent of it. It’s more of a problem when it comes to understanding certain letra I’m unfamiliar with.
b) Aside from learning the Andalusian dialect and your bodily skill/art (i.e. toque, baile, cante), are there other cultural elements that you perceive as being important for embodying flamenco? I’m not particularly concerned with “embodying flamenco”.
i) How do you balance the preservation of flamenco as a primarily (gitano) Andaluz art and culture with your desire to develop your sello propio (personal seal)? I don’t.
ii) Do you feel that learning other aspects of Andalusian and/or gitano culture make you a better flamenco/a? If so, what elements (e.g. cooking, posture, dress, language use, etc)? I don’t consider myself “a flamenco” so…
c) The term “flamenco” was used as a synonym for gitano before it came to describe an artistic-musical culture associated with them. Do you identify as flamenco? No. I’m flamenco to people who say that I am. I’m not flamenco to people who say that I’m not. It’s their business, not mine.
i) Does it ever give you pause? No.
d) How many hours a day do you practice and what is your regimen like? Detail as much as possible. How often do you take lessons and how do you interpret/use new material in practice? My basic regimen is about 90min a day. Usually do it about 5 or 6 days a week. It’s about ½ technique and ½ working on a piece or working on accompaniment. I take lessons once a week and opportunities for playing live vary widely for me, being a complete amateur.
3) History of Flamenco
a) How were you introduced to the history of flamenco? Drunken juerga discussions, then books.
i) What is your take on it regarding the gitano and/or Andalusian roles in its creation and diffusion? Both played an important role. Whatever the historical truth to it is, there’s a certain narrative that is now part of the flamenco myth.
ii) Give an impromptu account of what you know of flamenco history detailing as much as you can. Sorry but this would take far too much time.
iii) Do you know more about your field’s history (i.e. baile, toque, cante) or is your knowledge general? I know more about my own field’s history (toque). I’m catching up with cante but lagging far behind with baile.
b) Do you believe that historical knowledge in any way enhances your bodily/artistic knowledge? If so, how? Yes. First it widens my repertoire. Second, I believe intellectual understanding can affect the way you approach the music. Granted that’s hard to quantify.
c) If you are aware of the multiple cultures that have been said to contribute to flamenco’s aesthetics and character, can you name specific techniques, emotions, rhythms, and their perceived origins? Pua techniques, including alzapua, are commonly thought to have been derived from Oud playing. I’ve heard it argued that zapateado was brought over from South America. As for emotions, I’m not sure how one could argue for any kind of cultural origin of an emotion. As for rhythm, having spent a while in the Balkans I’ve always suspected there was some historical relationship between the amalgamated compas (solea, siguiriya, etc.) and aksak rhythms, but it’s nothing more than a hunch. It’s just got that same “pushing forward, pulling backwards” kind of feel and would fit nicely with the theory of how gitanos migrated over to Spain from the East.
4) Soleá/Lament
a) The siguiriya and soleá are considered cante jondo (deep song). They are genres of grief, despair, solitude (although the soleá allows for a broader range of emotions to be reflected in the lyrics).
i) How is this reflected in the cante? First by putting everything you’ve got into it. I’ve heard a lot of people cry in my life. I think I’ve only heard actual wailing just once (my grandfather after his wife of almost 60 years passed away). Cante jondo is more akin to the wailing than to the crying and part of that is just sheer “investment” in the feeling. As far as technique, dunno, ranges from sheer volume to inflections.
ii) Toque? A good ataque, leaving enough space for the musical phrases to breathe and resonate
iii) Baile? By dancing annoyingly slow.
b) There is a debate about the historical suffering of the gitanos and their way of emoting. The debate centers on who can emote and why. Do you believe that anyone can tap the emotions required for the interpretation of the deep genres? In the toque? Baile? Cante? Yes.
i) How do you evoke the emotions for delivering your artistic self in the deep genres? There’s nothing quite like pulling a few butt hairs to get the emotions flowing.
c) Are there certain letras (lyrics) that trigger grief, despair, or sadness for you? Yes
i) Can you list one or two?
Las que se publican
no son grandes penas
las que se callan y se llevan por dentro
son las verdaderas
Para todos los desgraciados
han hecho un convento
y el primerito que lo habitara
sería mi cuerpo
d) What about vocal techniques? Sure.
i) Are there any particular vocalizations that invoke these deep emotions? A good ayéo does the job. Arabesques, melisma, etc. all seem to contribute.
ii) Can these same “sad” emotions be triggered in other lighter genres? Yes.
5) Guitar: practice, theory, and analysis
a) Do you believe music theory can be a helpful toolkit for composition, analysis, and interpretation? Yes.
b) Are you aware of the three tonalities in flamenco? Yes.
c) Have you been exposed to the nuances in the definitions of tonality and modality? Probably not since I’m not sure what you’re referring to. Every theoretical concept in music breaks down at some point or another, especially when taking a concept meant to describe music from one tradition and trying to apply it to music from another tradition.
d) Can you define, describe, explain? See above.
e) Do you have a grasp of what hemiola is? Define it in your own words? A fancy way of saying 3 over 2? In flamenco it seems to be used to differentiate the “ternary” part and the “binary” part of an amalgamated compas. Lots of people seem to use it as a synonym of “half-compas”.
f) Do you know what a descending tetrachord is? What about the Andalusian Cadence? Yes.
g) If you have some experience with theory and analysis, can you share your analysis with performance notes of the first falseta from Paco de Lucía’s “Gloria al Niño Ricardo?” Unfortunately I already read Ricardo’s answer so I’d be cheating. I would’ve provided a much more dumbed down version of it and thrown in several mistakes for the ride. ^^
6) Intertext
a) Intertextuality is the idea that texts or fragments of texts can be transposed and put to new uses. For example, in Shelley’s Frankenstein, epigraphs, quotations, and allusions are borrowed from multiple sources in the service of thickening the plot, character development, and framing the moral of the new novel. In flamenco, cierres, llamadas, falsetas, and other gestures can be strung together in new ways in new instances of accompaniment or solo. Can you think of instances where someone quotes someone else’s falseta? Quejio? Paso? Within a genre (same key)? Across tonalities? Across genres? Nunez quoting Escudero's Impetu in Trafalgar (stealing that one from Ricardo ^^, probably wouldn’t have noticed it if he hadn’t pointed it out). Cepero quoting “Dark Eyes” por bulerias. Samuelito quoting a solea escobilla in a buleria.
b) Alain Faucher takes some liberties with phrasing in his flamenco guitar transcriptions. Do you know of any instances in which someone uses his transcription verbatim including possible questionable phrasings? Pretty much everybody except professionals.
c) One type of intertext that has a long history in Spanish vihuela/guitar is the intabulation, or arrangement of a multi-vocal work for guitar. Josquin’s Mille Regretz is arranged by Luys de Narváez, for example. Do you know falsetas in any palo that are more or less arrangements of the cante? Dunno, falsetas por solea that include more or less direct quotes from the paseíllo de ayes in a polo or cana are a dime a dozen. Dunno if that qualifies as an "arrangement of the cante" though.
d) Are you aware of some of the passages por soleá that are so common they are clichés? Sure.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Mar. 28 2019 16:25:47
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Beni2
Posts: 139
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
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RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
I could just as easily do away with my modal terminology and say “paco now plays a melodic falseta “por abajo” over top of the Eb chord.” And the same information is conveyed. Hope that clears it up.
Hi Ricardo...I can agree that we could just do away with all theory.
Flamencos generally don't have formal training in music theory although that is beginning to change. However, as I have said before, if one is going to use theory there are several considertions. The first is, as a practical matter, to ask what works. Any vocabulary is valid if it conveys or communicates musical practice. Second, an ethnomusicological inquiry into musical practice has to consider 1) its historical, cultural, and social evolution and 2) how to translate practice into a theoretical discourse that is sensitive to those three criteria. There are volumes written on translation studies but have not been really applied to music. Also, EM would take into account ethnotheory (the concepts the "locals" use), and balance the so-called "insider" and "outsider" conceptual frames.
That said, if it is BS to "impose" Roman numeral analysis onto flamenco because that system was designed for the analysis of Western music, then we could also conclude that it is "BS" to use modal theory because modal theory comes either from Greek, Gregorian (Via Boethius), or jazz, none of which are flamenco.
Another question about lydian...the modes in Western music are considered melodic, not harmonic, so, how do you deal with the F and Eb basses in the third measure?
Theory in the Western tradition was never meant to be a mental exercise isolated from actual practice. The great composers all were aware of theory which was passed down orally and in practice. They sometimes even followed theory rather than inspired it.
I have some other questions and responses I will address in order.
PV
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Date Mar. 28 2019 17:50:04
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flyeogh
Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
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RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Beni2)
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Interesting the moving on to a new country but it is worth bearing in mind that most people who are expats in Spain and are British, have and will be maintained by a UK economy (pensions, property, wealth, even benefits). And I'm sure that applies to many nationalities in non-birth lands.
I live in Spain but if I had to depend on Spain for a job and/or support I'd be sunk. The poverty, corruption, state inefficiency, and lack of education is appalling. Yes nice to see a Gitano playing in a bar, or often outside one, but you wouldn't want to live his life I can assure you.
But back to Kevin's topic. I'd like to know if people had a pre-flamenco musical history, and even a pre-guitar musical history. Maybe best added to the Bio if anyone would care to oblige me .
_____________________________
nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
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Date Mar. 28 2019 18:15:25
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Beni2)
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I agree, using mode terminology from jazz is just as bs as Roman numerals applied to flamenco. In the end it all depends on whom I am conveying the idea to specifically.
quote:
Another question about lydian...the modes in Western music are considered melodic, not harmonic, so, how do you deal with the F and Eb basses in the third measure?
As I stated already, I’m using the “modal borrowing in tonal music” Jazz concept of isolating each harmonic island and substituted mode, rather than thinking “ii-V-I” as a single scale/mode/key, it’s actually THREE different scale/mode/keys... if that makes sense? Any way it’s more how Paco is thinking there, 3 or at least two different keys in that passage. I used III-II-I in D as harmonic analysis however, there really aren’t any chords until the D chord, and the bass notes are not real bass notes as in modal drones, it’s a simple melody he is playing with a second voice under it for color. And also the modes are implied as it’s not fully spelled out in either melody.... I am taking liberty to fill that info in since I understand flamenco cadence. A Jazz guy might view the entire measure as In F ; lydian or lydian Dominant and then F Mixolydian for last beat.... but I know that’s not correct because we don’t resolve the flamenco cadence III-I like that. So I’m filling in the gaps here : F lydian bridging old key (II of old key) to new key (III of new key) which is supposed to be Mixolydian, Eb lydian on II which is normal, resolving D phrygian. In other words, this passage is not exemplary of any of those modes or harmonic moves, however it might be exemplary of HOW to convincingly change keys within a flamenco form.
Ps to both Kevin and mark.... I’m planning on going back after 5 year hiatus, hope you guys seriously consider a meet up in person.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Mar. 28 2019 19:15:23
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Beni2
Posts: 139
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
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RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Beni2)
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quote:
Ps to both Kevin and mark.... I’m planning on going back after 5 year hiatus, hope you guys seriously consider a meet up in person.
When is it? Not sure about planning but I would love to finally go.
quote:
this passage is not exemplary of any of those modes or harmonic moves, however it might be exemplary of HOW to convincingly change keys within a flamenco form.
Disagree. Can't comment right now because I don't have all my files and some of this is part of the dissertation.
Here is my roman numeral analysis without notes; I'll add those when I can
Spoiler alert: The falseta expands I-V-I. Paco does this alot where there are non-functional harmonies that make things interesting. The V, however is not borrowed from major, it is borrowed from the relative phrygian.
I should note, as well, that I think that multiple approaches can help. This is one version. To keep it from getting cluttered I don't label the modal inflections and in other versions I use jazz nomenclature (e.g. E9b---F-Eb-D|D9b---B7-EM7|Eb-D---C-B|B-Am---phrygian inflection (Am)--E.
Eb--D--B--C is a substitution for the andalusian cadence in B e-D-B-C. By lowering the e to eb, Paco is able to exploit two phrygian gestures instead of one. D moves to Eb deceptively in minor but since it is the tonic here, he moves through the Bb7 to tonicize the EbM. The middle two staves are all expanding V even though you don't actually get to V until the last measure in the third system.
To me, you cant get there thinking modally. Paco knew his voice-leading very well. Flamencos have been borrowing from classical and are heirs to the Baroque. The classical and flamenco guitars do not split musically until the beginning of the 19th century and organologically when Torres starts building guitars that today we would call flamencos (see Brune post somewhere on the foro).
Anyway, thoughts, opinions, critiques, and beer are all welcome...my address is...
PV
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Date Mar. 28 2019 20:24:47
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Escribano
I detest nationalism, the idea that you are blindly loyal to the country of one's birth does not resonate with me. I have been to better places.
Nationalism has been a strong component of the American collective psyche since the 18th century. No doubt it arose from rebellion against the most powerful country in the world at the time. Every day I see inflammatory appeals to nationalism. Having lived abroad, having seen a bit of the world, and having participated in some of our nationalistic excesses myself, I am far more skeptical of nationalism than I was 60 years ago. It is one among our several besetting sins.
My family have now been in America for almost four centuries. We have lived through and participated in the Revolution, the War of 1812, the Texas War of Independence, the Civil War, the Spanish American War, WW I, WW II, Korea and Vietnam, plus a few sub rosa episodes of imperialism. My ex-wife's cousins were in on the start of the First Gulf War.
When I was a child, my grandparents told of their parents' involvement on both sides of the Civil War. My father's grandfather served in the Mississippi Artillery. He lived until 1913. In every one of the handful of photos I have of him, you can see the Confederate medals pinned to his coat. Both of my mother's grandfathers fought for the Union. My grandparents recited their fathers' stories of senseless slaughter, oppression, hardship and heroism. Down to my generation almost every member of the male line served in the military, or made a career in it like my father.
Only one of the next generation signed up. My nephew did a stint in the Air Force as a clinical psychologist. Some of the next generation (my brother's young adult grandchildren) have asked me in some detail about my few years of experience in the military, and about the service of my father and eight uncles in WW II. I don't think they have come away encouraged by me to participate. But I have no trouble imagining situations where a number of them would choose a side and fight.
Though I feel we are now within sight of the brink of crisis, our present situation pales beside past disasters...so far.
I'm in a reasonably secure financial position. At age 81 I don't think I'm likely to be called upon to risk my life again. I still communicate with friends and relatives on both sides of the abyss, while I strive to resist provocation.
I think I'll try to ride this one out.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 28 2019 21:45:39
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to flyeogh)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: flyeogh
But back to Kevin's topic. I'd like to know if people had a pre-flamenco musical history, and even a pre-guitar musical history. Maybe best added to the Bio if anyone would care to oblige me .
In a thread about cultural appropriation I outlined my checkered musical past. When I was nine years old they came around at school and asked whether we would like to play an instrument. I immediately chose trumpet, influenced by the lovely sounds of the Mexican teenager who lived across the alley from my grandmother, in a tiny South Texas town.
In high school I was fortunate to have as trumpet teacher the 1st trumpet of the National Symphony in Washington DC. I got pretty much into the classical music scene on the East Coast. My teacher objected to my playing jazz and a gig in a mambo band, but he put up with it if I didn't bring it up.
Third year at university my science major schedule made it impossible to continue in the University Symphony and Symphonic Band, so I started fooling around with guitar. In the late 1950s there was no classical guitar teacher in town who came near measuring up to my high school trumpet teacher. Nowadays in Austin we have Adam Holzman's world famous classical guitar studio at the University, and the world's largest and most active classical guitar society.
At university I met some friends who studied flamenco guitar with Eddie Freeman in Dallas. Clearly Eddie knew what he was up to: what his students played was what was on the LPs. My best friend invited me to accompany him to a lesson with Freeman. I told my friend that Freeman clearly knew his stuff, and was an effective teacher for many, but he and I wouldn't get along. Last weekend I took one of my guitars to Tom Blackshear in San Antonio, for him to finish a drawing of it. When I told him the Freeman story, he nodded and smiled in agreement. But I know several people who loved Freeman and still reminisce fondly about him.
Further reflecting my mongrelized musical experience, though Blackshear was a pro flamenco player for years, and is well know for his flamenco guitars, the one I bought from him is a classical.
So I learned what flamenco I know from hanging around Freeman's students, copping stuff off LPs, taking a few lessons from an old guy in Triana when I was 20-21, watching and listening to Perico El del Lunar at Zambra in Madrid, being blown away by Sabicas, Carlos Ramos and Mario Escudero in person, and the great resources of transcriptions, the Web and DVDs.
I still play classical and flamenco guitar, but about the only flamenco I have listened to just for kicks in the last 15 years or so has been cante.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 28 2019 22:14:16
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I want to stay in Europe. Spain was an option but my wife is Mexican and not supportive of that. She hates bullfighting, the accent and treatment of stray animals. She also doesn't like flamenco, so Italy is the best we can agree on 
