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Practising
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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 RE: Practising (in reply to flyeogh)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: flyeogh
I see on the online course the guy recommends not practising 2 days every week. To be fair he makes a clear separation between practising and just playing. A practise session having clear objectives and involving a lot of slow perfect playing - and that metronome.
As all my previous efforts to learn to play (before I retired) have failed due to pressure of work and other calls on my time I’m rather reluctant to do that. However, he suggests that the 2 day break does really pay dividends.
I am just wondering how would he know that (the underlined). It is probably a n=1 experiment (himself), so take it into consideration accordingly. Apart from that, however:
The brain does need a break from learning consciously in order to process skills and chunk them and absorb them into the subconscious - usually a good sleep would do, and, occasionally after not playing at all for a couple of days one comes back and it feels like there is an increase in skill level - that scale run that was giving trouble now can be done flawlessly.
However, from your description the teacher is only talking about not practicing, not about not playing at all. I don't know if the same logic as what I described above can be applied to that situation, or at least in terms of getting a similar benefit.
Or, is he making a distinction between practicing a piece, where you would stop when a mistake is made and work on that spot etc,, versus playing a piece as if in front of audience, where you would just keep going and do your best but not stop - essentially practicing for performance? If so, this is more on the psychological side of training but it is certainly useful not to neglect practicing for performance.
If this is what was meant, he should have explained it. "does really pay dividends" is very vague. Are the dividends to do with technique (the way I took it at first)? Or ability to perform in public? Or ability to stay engaged and excited about flamenco and not burn out? Or something else?
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Konstantin
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Date Mar. 26 2019 15:46:01
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himanshu.g
Posts: 42
Joined: Jun. 9 2016
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RE: Practising (in reply to flyeogh)
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I am a beginner myself, so take my words with a pinch of salt :)
If it helps, I started learning in my thirties and have a fairly demanding day job.
I try to carve out 1 hour everyday.
When I started learning about 4 years ago, I heard from multiple sources that RH was more important than LH because rhythm is very important and controlled by RH. So, I spent pretty much all of that one hour for 3 years just practicing arpeggios with a simple solea falseta, rasgueados on muted strings and falsetas with pulgar, a simple solea compas.
Recently, I think I have got the arpeggio , thumb and rasgueados to an "advanced beginner" level. So now I am trying to catch up on my LH. Now a days, My 1 hour practice session consists of about 30 mins of scales, slurs, barre chords .. about 10-15 mins of RH routine above (all techniques within some falseta as much possible to keep it interesting) and a typical tangos compas.
Very recently (last 2 months or so) I started to learn some "pieces" from Juan Martin and Oscar Herrero books, but this is more like side activity to save myself from getting bored and having fun.
I don't make a specific rule like 2 days practice etc ... I just practice and when I am not in mood , I give myself a break and noodle around. Also, for practicing technique I keep on changing the falseta I use to keep some variation (there are many online courses and youtube videos to help with that).
I have taken a couple of lessons with Ricardo to help learn everything.
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Date Mar. 27 2019 4:55:34
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Practising (in reply to JasonM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonM
I get that too. I would piss off my wife playing the same phrase a hundred times for 2 weeks while she was trying to relax. But now I’m no longer married and I’m free to drive my dog crazy instead
Well, love ...
Early eighties, she had spontaneously moved to my very small bachelor place. I had so to say stolen her as wife of a Sicilian guy (with her so anxious that he may stub me). Got us a larger place a while later, though nothing could keep us from enjoying time in the small one.
From time to time me would halt monotonous finger exercises and ask her whether it was really not annoying to her, and she would swear that it was not disturbing at all.
Maybe it´s a litmus test for whether one´s girl friend is truly loving.
Of my affairs none ever disliked my guitar sound, whether as just dull exercise or playing.
The one and only that reacted averse was a platonic friend, while visiting me over the weekend.
Me was playing some etudes, when she snapped: "Please STOP that!"
Don´t know whether it had to do with her former boy friend having been a terrific rock guitarist, or what.
(He on the other hand, hearing me later on, quite liked it and admired the finger style.)
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Date Mar. 30 2019 15:46:39
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flyeogh
Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
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RE: Practising (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Just practicing 1 hour a day won't get you very far in my opinion. Unfortunately, flamenco guitar is difficult in terms of technique and requires heavy upkeep. Don't play for 3 months and you will notice a massive difference in skill level.
Shroomy I'm going in the reverse direction to you so now retired have all the time you had when starting out.
One thing that is pleasing is that I rapidly recovered all the things I had managed during my various "start-stop" attempts I'd had in my working life - so not all lost. Of course I'd only got so far so we are talking about basic skills and a little Solea, tangos, Farruca and Sevillanas.
Now I have all day if I wish, I have 3 great guitars, all the strings I want, and my prof in Jerez I can visit virtually at a drop of a hat. Last week I had problems with a Fandangos de Huelva exercise so gave him a buzz. Within 24 hours we were sorting it face to face  .
Good kit and a prof on tap doesn't make you a maestro (well beyond my ambition) of course , but it sure removes doubts and keeps you focussed on your own short-comings 
One thing I will be doing in my second 100 days is separating warm up, practising and playing. In the first phaze it was too easy to do an exercise at slow speed, then ramp up the metronome and give it a blast, rather han focussing on drilling the technique for sufficient time.
Shroomy hopefully when your retirement comes, in the distant future  , you'll get to recover those skills.
But we are where we are and at the moment I need to keep progressing those arps.
ps: Looking back I could have put in more time with Flamenco and reached a higher standard, but I wouldn't swap my years of windsurfing and then diving for that. And I would never have reached maestro level I think. My interest is pure enjoyment 
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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
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Date Apr. 11 2019 3:06:39
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: Practising (in reply to flyeogh)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: flyeogh
However, one thing that I need to progress to keep advancing is the speed/accuracy of my arpeggios. In order to plan my attack, I’d appreciate any thoughts on:
Looking at all types, up/down, single/double. Do you practise them all, say on the same day? Or is it easier to focus on one at a time?
To get more speed do you practise with free strokes (as on the 4th string that seems necessary and keeping them all the same stroke type might help)? Or do you use rest strokes for 5th and 6th?
Also, to get more speed. do you plant all three treble playing fingers in advance?
I don't know what some of this means. What is single double - is it a reference to single double speed, or to ascending (or descending) vs. ascending+descending? And what arpeggios do you practice on strings 5 and 6?
It might be clearer if you label arpeggios by the way you use your right hand for the pattern. Are the bass string arpeggios some combination with p?
I tend to practice arpeggios along a couple of lines :
- patterns that occur frequently in flamenco, like amip or pima or pimami; Giuliani Op.48 no.5 pimami study is a favourite benchmark;
- patterns with m and a preferentially in order to improve finger dexterity and equalize skill, like Pujol's El Abejorro but played with pmam instead of the original pimi pattern;
- patterns which "expand" my brain, to improve finger control and independence, like the pipipmiamaimpipi pattern from Villa-Lobos Etude 1.
For each of these, you can vary dynamics, tempo, bring out voices, accent different notes - for fun as to not get bored, but also this teaches you control and independence so it is beneficial technique-wise as well.
Cycling through this, rather than doing all of that every time, is almost unavoidable - especially since arpeggios are just one part of technique, and you would also need study and practice time for pieces. Well unless you have 14 hours a day and can sustain it, then you can probably do all each day.
The more recent method books I've seen on classical guitar technique (same as flamenco on arpeggio, and overall a subset of flamenco technique so it applies here) seem to arrange technique practice as cycling through different elements with a goal of covering the entire scope you wanted maybe within a week's worth of practice sessions.
EDIT: To answer your planting question - I don't do block planting (planting ami all at once) and only do sequential planting; well, unless I am starting the exercise or piece in which case all fingers might be on the strings. I don't really see the benefit of block planting (aka full planting) for anyone who is not a beginner in guitar technique. I think it messes up the natural movement of fingers so in fact it makes reaching higher speeds more difficult compared to sequential planting. Sequential planting is also what you need for tremolo (flamenco or classical) - there you don't even have a choice.
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Date Apr. 11 2019 6:00:12
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Practising (in reply to flyeogh)
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-I go through a range or arpeggio patterns but it'd be very difficult to do all of them in the same day. I usually warm up to a simple solea compas and run through the following: pima, piam, pmia, pmai, paim and pami. But that's not really to work on speed or accuracy, it's just to warm up. I try to work on stuff that are related. So, for instance, If I'm working on pimami, I start with one of the Granados exercices (pretty long exercices) and slowly work my way up with the metronome. When I reach the point where I can't keep up anymore, maybe I'll slow down the metronome and do some pama or pmam since it's often a and m that are holding me back. Or I'll do short "bursts" (just one cycle, starting in different places, so maybe pimamip then pause, or amipima then pause, whatever works), then I'll go back to the Granados exercice and usually I can now up the metronome a little bit.
- I use rest strokes as much as possible with the thumb. At some point I start doing free strokes on the 4th string like you said (if the arp starts with i)
- I don't tend to plant.
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Date Apr. 11 2019 6:40:34
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). With guitars lurking around the house I normally do several spells a day ranging from one hour to a quick 5 mins. And I have a 90 minute lesson every 10 to 14 days more or less. I also use materials from an online course (as much Spanish folk as flamenco). 
) pick and choose from many sources, or stick to a main course? Having accumulated so many books, with so many more YouTube vids, and input from my teacher, I find it hard not to wander around. On the one hand that stops me getting bored but equally can lead to me losing focus. 
