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RE: The "Loop" argument..
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Ricardo
Posts: 14892
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Florian)
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Fandangos has the phrygian type falsetas which are not structured. The part that goes to relative magor (C, F,C,G,C,F,E) is the copla. For fandangos de huelva you have other types of coplas the guitar can copy, like when it goes, E major to Amajor, Aminor back to E. I am sure you know that one. The other singing stuff the guitar can copy is the estribillos, or chorus that might go from Am,G,F E, or something. Mensaje by Vicente is not a real copla, it is his own creation and can be looked at as an estribillo, that would be the singing part. The falseta is following the copla obviously.
So yeah there is some structure, but you can organize the guitar solo however you want as Ron's teacher was trying to say. But veridales is verdiales. It is not fandango de huelva. Does it fit over the rhythm? Sort of. I would prefer to hear the chords behind, but it is differnet song all together. Likewise you should not do a sevillanas copla if you are establishing a fandangos de huelva group song, even though it too sort of fits in the rhythm. (Sorry florian, that is just the way I see it amigo).
Listen to Enrique del Melchor going mano a mano with Paco where they trade coplas of fandangos with falsetas, just like Porrina and Farrina. You can hear how a fandango group number might be structured.
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Date Feb. 9 2006 17:55:40
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
So yeah there is some structure, but you can organize the guitar solo however you want as Ron's teacher was trying to say. But veridales is verdiales
yes i know verdiales is verdiales, i must admit i didnt give it much tought i liked the melody and whated to use it, i dont know how common that melody is in verdiales because i never listen to verdiales, I copied the melody idea but i adjusted the phrasing and feel to fitt fandangos.
If thats wrong cool i accept that (like i said is not my fav palo, and i havent enquired much about it), but i did not play verdiales over the fandango loop, i took a melody from verdiales and tryed to play it with a fandango de huelva feel (atlist thats what i was thinking in my own head) i made up litlle parts to round it off.
U once yourself said that gerardo likes to play different falsetas in different palos, when i changed a tanquillo of his to a solea por buleria a while back on ft.
quote:
Any way Gerardo actually likes moving his own falsetas into different palos and I think he would like this. You would have fun in his summer course in Sanlucar.
heh i cant belive it, i acctualy found your old post on the FT old archives.
either way its put me off the fandangos de huelva atm  i might find and transcribe something else i like or i might just leave it, the problem i have is that everything else i heard so far is so damn predictable, what is the point of doing a group fandangos if all our melodyes will sound the same, is like watching a movie when you know the end allready.
Perhaps we should have asked ourselfs this questions before we jumped on the fandangos the huelva as a group jam.
imagine if we all get an idea to do the same melody as the 4 examples i provided earlier, it will be like taking turns on sevillanas and we all do the same copolla.
We either think outside the box and do different fandangos de H (if thats possible) or we cant do the fandango H because u cant repeat any of the falsetas that imitate the letras, because that ould be wrong.
the Fandangos goes into a constant build up, and repeating the same letra will not allow it to continue on its natural course.
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Date Feb. 9 2006 18:37:40
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Ron.M)
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HEHE Ron I see Ricardos post has encouraged your confidence again  mibe give it another read in other words there is a certain structure to fandangos de huelva i belive he said (its exactly what i was saying), so be confident but not that confident, i belive u were just as wrong about the FHD as i was about trying to experiment with a Verdiales
quote:
Don't go for easy options, you're just putting things off which will bug you forever IMO
I never ever go for easy options mate, I tought u knew that if i wanted to go for an ezy option i wouldnt have tryed something different in a first place (i could have just playd a fhd) knowing full well the reaction i might get, I would learn Paco Pena instead of Ramon Jimenez (whom some users here might not even know) tangos i always go on impulse, and on what i like. And i would never ever upload anything so that i dont get criticised,.. but i dont..
Trust me , when i am in the mood for FHD again, i will play FHD.
quote:
either think outside the box and do different fandangos de H (if thats possible) or we cant do the fandango H because u cant repeat any of the falsetas that imitate the letras, because that ould be wrong.
the Fandangos goes into a constant build up, and repeating the same letra will not allow it to continue on its natural course.
U quoted me there, but are you disagreeing ? are you saying that it is ok for 4 singhers to sing fandangos de huelva, and when each of theyr turn comes they all sing the same letra again one after the other ? u dont think that that would kill the normal course of a fandangos de huelva solo ?
Is like singing " AI carai carai cara i.. " letra in the same alegria solo 4 times
just apply that same thing to the guitar , that was the point i was trying to make, in saying the sentence u quoted me on.
quote:
Fandangos de Huelva is not just a "Spanishy thing like Sevillanas".
That's total bull...
Sevillanas and FdeH are hugely important in Flamenco.
Ron. Fandangos de Huelva, Sevillanas come from Spanish Andalucian folklore thats a fact not an opinion 
I didnt say they not important i said they are not my favourites palos.
Sevillanas comes from Bolero.
I dont like the pretty flamenco, i dont like frills, castanets, fans etc.. i like the ugly and dirty one if that makes any sense to you.
cheers
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Date Feb. 9 2006 22:00:53
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Ricardo
Posts: 14892
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Florian)
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Hey guys, it is starting to look like a real arguement here. No need to go on the defensive. Florian, yeah you can mix forms and palos and put songs to different compases. I love that verdiales. Why don't we make a different track and play that one together, trading off? There are other verdiales too. It is Gerardo's falseta. I think of the rhythm and form as really different, but similar to fandangos. Like you put tanguillo falsetas to Solea compas, cool. You can hear a singer sing a bulerias letra por tangos, same Idea. But you won't really hear a tangos go into a Columbianas or Farruca, know what I mean? I don't really know why it seems wrong to me, it just does. Maybe becuase the rhythms are very similar so it is not like you play anything different to make it more fandangosish, it just sounds like normal verdiales to me, and does not fit in the scheme of "fandangos de Huelva". But don't be defensive, anyone can contribute whatever they want that fits the loop. Some one might play paco's Zyrab over it, it is not fandangos but it works too.
But interms of copla, well, that is what flamenco is all about, at least traditional flamenco. The same MELODIES embelished and improvised lyrics. The singer's personality comes out in the embelishments, not because he is composing a new song. That is the whole idea. A falseta is theme and variation too. In the variation is the personality. That is the point of showing everybody do the same thing, same chord structure etc. Even modern flamenco is based on the same idea, embelishing on the same old melody. I think it is really cool.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 9 2006 22:27:43
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Florian)
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Hi Florian,
I'm anything but confident man!.....
But everytime I discover that I've understood something incorrectly (which has happened a lot in the past and no doubt will in the future), I really try to focus on it to get it right...
It's just called learning by mistakes, which is understandable, since this stuff is hard, and there is not much info going around other than stuff on basic compás and on guitar techniques.
What I felt, was that you were feeling a bit down and saying ..."I'm a bit confused and pissed off over this FdH thing... and anyway, it's not my favourite palo, so I might just leave it for now."
So I was meaning to encourage you and get you out of that way of thinking.
Florian, I can afford to do that, since I'm just a "hobby" player.
I can just pick and choose stuff that pleases me.
But if I were in your position and serious about being a full time guitarist, I'd make sure I knew all of the palos to the very best of my ability.
Fandangos and Sevillanas are important forms in Flamenco.
I can't really see Farruca being Amir Haddad's favourite palo, but I bet he can play it really well.
Why? Because he's a working Madrid guitarist and may be asked to accompany anything.
This thread has got me listening to lots of FdH now and trying to work out what's going on..and how different players handle it, which is great...I'm learning something.
cheers
Ron
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Date Feb. 10 2006 8:50:56
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Ricardo
Posts: 14892
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
dont u think that playing it once in a FHD doing a rythm compas and playing the same melody somewhere in the same solo would sound wrong in FDH ?
Of course not man. That is what the whole thing is about. Again the same copla only with variation, and estribillo in between if you want. You don't need 4 different kinds of coplas, you can do the same one over and over. That is what Paco does Live at Royal theater, just the same C major copla with different variations on the same melody. But the variations are so different from each other. That is why it is fandangoSSSS, not fandango. A singer would probably do the same melody over and over for a group of dancers, where only the lyrics change. But he does not have to, he can do different coplas. Just like in Sevillanas. The guitar soloist or accompanying w/ no singer would be copying this idea.
And about mixing in other stuff, you can be doing bulerias, then suddenly the Fandango copla. It would be fandango por bulerias at that moment. That tristeazul mp3 I posted in the camaron thread you hear him do that for the last letra in the bulerias with paco. But you would not hear some one start playing or singing bulerias in the middle of a fandango de huelva. Paquera sang fandango naturales, lyrics about bulerias, and then at the end of the letra Parilla busts out with intense rasgueados por bulerias super fast. That is the closest I have heard to "bulerias por fandangos" LOL, but really it was just an intro for bulerias.
Anyway, if you don't have that Enrique album where he trades with Paco I will email you the mp3. They do the estribillo, Paco plays the copla in A major/minor like you posted, Enrique does the phrygian falseta, then Paco does the copla in C major. Then they do variations on the estribillo together. It is very cool and shows how you could piece together a group number.
As far as singing goes, they also will have like fandangos battles where they trade off on the same type of letra and try to out do each other. Or even take turns in the same letra. Check out Caracol and Beni de Cadiz in Rito y Geografia. I think the idea to do the same with guitar solo is cool.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 10 2006 15:37:50
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