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Lenny Breau
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Piwin
Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Lenny Breau (in reply to SombraDuende)
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I don't think Paco blended jazz with flamenco in any real sense. In fact, I don't think it's ever been done and I tend to doubt it's even possible. He brought in some novelties into flamenco, some of which were inspired by jazz musicians he had worked with. But it wouldn't make any sense in my mind to say that he "broke the rules of jazz". I don't think Paco was jazz-literate. Maybe it's a distinction without a difference, but I don't think PdL was inspired by jazz at all. I think he was inspired by certain musicians who happened to play jazz. And I suspect, from what you say, that Lenny Breau wasn't inspired by flamenco but by Sabicas. Like PdL with jazz, I don't think Breau was flamenco-literate. So I guess you could say he was breaking the rules out of ignorance. Breaking the rules he didn't know were there. But I'm not sure that has any artistic significance. Using a tremolo or playing in tono de taranta or phrygio por arriba or whatever are just varnish, nothing more. The "rules" run much deeper. For me, anyone attempting to really fuse two styles would have to be aware of all of that. Which is why fusion is very difficult to do and fails more often that it succeeds. What I hear when I listen to Breau is not fusion. Just some borrowing of certain superficial aspects of flamenco (which is fine btw, not saying there's anything wrong with that). Or to put it simply, when I listen to his "taranta", I don't hear a taranta at all. So by that standard, if I'm told that his intent was to create a flamenco-jazz fusion, I'd say he failed. But I don't know that he was even attempting to fuse the two. I do know that Paco certainly wasn't trying to fuse the two (at least not in his own playing). The problem goes both ways too. A jazz player uses the Andalusian cadence and for some that's enough to say it's flamenco or flamenco-inspired. A flamenco player plays an unusual chord and that's enough for some to call it jazz or jazz-inspired. To me that misses the essence of both genres entirely. Anyways, none of this it meant to be critical of Breau as a guitarist. It's just the idea of blending or fusion that I'm talking about.
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Date May 22 2018 20:09:46
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Lenny Breau (in reply to SombraDuende)
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quote:
In the end it's all music. Nobody owns flamenco in my opinion. I think the gypsies had a big part in the creation of flamenco music and they were influenced by many styles of music from many different places... The primary elements that influenced the creation of flamenco were the Moors, Sephardic Jews, and Gypsies in Andalusia. While the Gypsies have been predominant in carrying flamenco forward, it is a common mistake to think they "created" or "invented" it. As far as "breaking the rules" of a particular genre of music, including flamenco, one must first know the rules, and know them well, before achieving any success at breaking them. Just breaking the rules out of ignorance (as Piwin stated above) does not ensure a successful result in music or any other endeavor. Finally, one should be cautious about praising "fusion" of musical styles and genres. So-called "fusion" very often results in the lowest common denominator being exhibited, more a cacophony than a smooth fusion which is very hard to achieve. Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 22 2018 20:29:52
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Mark2
Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Lenny Breau (in reply to SombraDuende)
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My mom said to me once that the music belongs to those who learn to play it. Seems to make sense to me, but flamenco is not just music. In fact, I'd say music is only half of it. So you could have a person who plays solo flamenco guitar very well, but if he isn't versed in the other aspects, he will be dismissed by many flamencos and aficionados. And even if he is, if he's from a different country, he will be dismissed by some anyway. Fair? Maybe not. Reality? Absolutely. An opera singer can be from anywhere-if you have the pipes, you have it. Flamenco, not really. Lenny was great and I love jazz guitar-Joe Pass, Django, Barney Kessel, etc, etc-all the greats. quote:
ORIGINAL: SombraDuende I've spent time in Sevilla. One guy I became friends with there told me that he hates how closed minded some people get when talking about flamenco. He told me music, including flamenco, is art and nobody owns art.
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Date May 22 2018 22:00:27
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Lenny Breau (in reply to SombraDuende)
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quote:
I never said gypsies "invented" flamenco. I said they played a big part in it. Lenny is not "breaking the rules" of flamenco. He was "breaking the rules" of guitar playing. Is that so hard to understand... While the Gitanos have carried flamenco forward and consider it their own, the Moors and Sephardic Jews had as much influence in the creation and initial development of what we call flamenco as did the Gitanos. Yet it is always the Gitanos who are given the lion's share of credit for creating flamenco. The Gitanos themselves find it in their interest to perpetuate this myth, and those with a superficial understanding of the history of flamenco by and large accept it. I appreciate your obvious admiration for Lenny Breau, but when you state that he was "breaking the rules" of guitar playing, rather than the rules that govern particular genres of music, such as flamenco, classical, jazz, blues, etc. what do you mean? Various genres, and certainly flamenco with its compas and various palos, have some basic rules that define them. How does one "break the rules" of guitar playing, as you state above, without breaking the rules of the genre one is attempting to play? Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 22 2018 22:22:08
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