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I need help to attain required flamenco tremolo speed
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Pororo
Posts: 6
Joined: Jun. 7 2017
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 I need help to attain required flame...
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I have been practicing flamenco tremolo for more than 2 years now, trying various practicing methods, various patterns with both classical guitar posture and flamenco posture without any success. I seem to hit a speed wall and cannot increase my speed past that certain point.
So far I've been practicing both piami, pmami, pamim, pamia with the following methods:
Thumb tirando and iami staccato, slowly enough than playing faster, gradually
Thumb apoyando and iami staccato
All fingers tirando, play with very small range of finger motion
Thumb apoyando, iami play with very small range of finger motion
Thumb apoyando, iami play with large range of motion, trying to collapse fingers as close towards the palm as possible, like many flamenco guitarists do
Thumb tirando, iami apoyando
[Foro] Ricardo's method: iami very fast, ended with p apoyando, at first I thought I can do iami fast enough but it's not the case actually, because my "m" finger didn't really hit the string, more likely slide through
Adam del Monte's supplement exercise: p (rest) pi (rest) ia (rest) am (rest) mi (rest) ip... I can do this one pretty fast but then when I come back to normal pattern piami nothing is improved at all.
[Foro] Miguel de Maria's method: play pi very fast, then "ami", there is always a space between "pi" and "ami", plus I cannot do this with p apoyando and my hand bounces like crazy doing this method
[Foro] Grisha's advice: hold a 25 cent between the second joints of i-m and another 25 cent between the second joints of m-a, practice "piami" trying not to drop those coins
Dmitri Nilov's method: practice various pattern pami pima pimi piai pmam and finally piami
All the foro methods I've tried come from this topic:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=18027&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#18027
"piami" causes me a fatigue and/or pain in my index finger and whenever I try increasing speed past that certain point, my pinkie becomes very rigid to the point that it is fixed, glued into my palm, instead of moving in a similar motion with ring finger
"pmami" gives me a much more balance, comfortable feel in comparison with "piami", also there is no issue with pinkie, however the sound from m finger is kind of much louder than the sound from i and a, moreover I'm not sure I can achieve required speed for a smooth tremolo with this pattern
I also tried practicing with online metronome, p apoyando from 6th to 1st string then reverse, iami on both 1st, p 6th to 2nd string, iami on 2nd and p 6th to 3rd, iami on 3rd string then revert thumb playing order and can reach ~350bpm, each beat falls into one stroke.
Although many guitarist find it difficult to play tremolo on 2nd or 3rd string, I find it easier on 2nd and 3rd string but a bit harder on 1st string because I have relatively small hands with short fingers, that makes it difficult for me to maintain a comfortable right hand position when p plays 6th string and ami play 1st string.
About the posture, although flamenco posture gives a more comfortable and convenience feel, I cannot choose it because the piece I'm trying to master - "Un sueno en la floresta" (composed by Barrios Mangore) has many awkward chords that are virtually impossible to play with flamenco posture. For example the transition from bar 31 to 32 below:
In order to make thing more clear, I've recorded 3 clips, the 1st one I play piami with small range of (iami) motion, the 2nd one is piami with large range of (iami) motion and the final one is pmami:
https://youtu.be/ahZM1J4W2XI
https://youtu.be/vTGEvyFoQWg
https://youtu.be/ZRucG3-VM9E
Could you please give me some advice about my case?
Thanks in advance!
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Date Mar. 30 2018 17:16:43
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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 RE: I need help to attain required f... (in reply to Pororo)
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A few scattered thoughts:
Have you tried pami - i.e. the 'classical' tremolo pattern - yet? It would match the piece you are trying to learn. But also - I just wondered if piami seems so difficult, if you are not one of these people who find pami more natural (I don't but am aware that these people exist :-) ).
Not sure what you mean about flamenco posture - it seems to be about the left hand since you mention it would not be possible to do some awkward chords and changes in that piece. But if so, I am confused - I don't think there is a distinct flamenco posture for the left hand - it can totally look like the way classical guitar is taught for the left hand. Anyway.
Your thumb seems very independent of the ami fingers as you play different strings - which is not easy to accomplish - congrats!
I can't see anything you are obviously doing wrong from the videos, but based on what you said about fatigue and pinky freezing etc, it seems like one major thing to work on is to remove (1) excessive and (2) unnecessary muscle tension in the right hand. This means working on making your muscle input (for the muscles that do participate in the stroke) to be more impulse-like - tension right at the pushing-through-string part of the stroke, then complete relaxation for the rest of the trajectory for that (flexor) muscle. But also not engaging muscles which do not participate in stroke execution - like the pinky movers.
The staccato-type exercises can be used to address this. Just strive to feel the finger that just played is completely relaxed by the time the next one is prepared to strike. For the iami part of the pattern, play i, and by the time a stops the vibrating string to prep for its stroke, the i finger should feel "empty" (as Scott Tennant says), and so on for a-m, m-i. This should be done slow enough at first so you can feel it is happening. The speed will come quicker later if you reprogram your fingers to 'empty' (and also pay attention that you are not tensing non-playing fingers).
I can't think of anything else at the moment. You've done a lot of thinking and systematically going through exercises and different approaches. The only 'wrong' thing seems to be that you feel fatigue, and tension in non-playing fingers.
About Ricardo's tip to try iamip, iamip - I don't think iami is supposed to be so fast that you would miss with m - that kind of practice has no good purpose. Try it slower - iamip is a great approach to even out the strokes; also like he says, it shows you how the tremolo came about in the first place - like a long string of grace notes before you play the thumb note.
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Konstantin
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Date Mar. 31 2018 1:35:22
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: I need help to attain required f... (in reply to Pororo)
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If you're getting pain or rigidity, then you're building up tension somewhere. Given what you said about balance, my guess (shot in the dark) is that you're tensing up to keep your hand balanced.
If I had to wager a guess of where it's coming from, I'd say that, although you're playing rest strokes with your thumb, you're probably not using your thumb to anchor your hand down. And that's one of the main advantages of flamenco tremolo: the thumb works as an anchor. So if you take just that first beat where you play the A 5th string as bass. You should be able to keep your thumb on the 4th string and play around with the other fingers, wave around or wiggle them about or whatever and your hand should just stay in the same place with no tension because the thumb is anchored down to the 4th string.
Another possibility is that you're attacking the string too much from beneath. It doesn't really seem like that to me on your vids but it might explain why you have trouble with p on 6th and iami on 1st. Your hands really don't seem to be small enough for that to be a problem but if you're attacking the strings really from beneath, then it would make sense since you'd have to sort of overextend your hand and "claw" your way all the way down there under the string.
Last thing, if you're working with a metronome, I would forget about putting the click on each stroke. That might help you make sure you've got perfect evenness in your tremolo but it's not conducive to building speed. Put the click on each beat and do quintuplets. First because evenness is fairly unimportant in flamenco tremolo and second because conceptually it puts you in a spot where piami is just "one movement" and not 5 separate movements, something you really need if you're going to acquire speed.
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Date Mar. 31 2018 6:04:58
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Pororo
Posts: 6
Joined: Jun. 7 2017
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RE: I need help to attain required f... (in reply to Pororo)
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Many thanks all of you for helping me
@kitarist: In fact originally I practiced the piece using pami, and can get the tremolo quite decent as in the following recording, unfortunately afterwards, I practiced the next two tremolo sections of that piece and has never ever been able to play classical tremolo as decent as I could ever since
https://soundcloud.com/diminuendo-cresc/sueno-en-la-floresta-demo
Now my pami tremolo is quite gallop, always goes like p---ami---p---ami, the gallop sound is even emphasized more due to the complexity of the left hand in the 1st tremolo section
When I mention "flamenco" / "classical" posture, I mean the position where the guitar rests. Often classical guitarists use either traditional foot stool or guitar support with the guitar rests on the left thigh, while flamenco guitarists rest it on the right thigh, thus makes it very hard to do the following transition (starting at ~0:24)
https://youtu.be/IFzKxXEo6Ls?t=24
As we can see, I had to significantly lower my left shoulder to be able to have enough force to do the barre. In flamenco posture, my left hand will collide with the body of the guitar at 12th fret and kind of stuck there
About staccato, I find it a bit harder trying to play iami when p rest stroke and I often unconsciously increase the tempo after a while, which causes the staccato sound gradually becomes legato (I'm not quite familiar with metronome, it makes me stress so I rarely practice with it)
@Leñador: I have tried muting strings with both my left hand and a sock putting near the bridge, I find it much easier to play tremolo when the strings are muted, especially when my left hand involves. But then when I come back to normal string condition, nothing is better.
@Piwin: Yes, I have a better feel when I pull my right hand up so you're right about the fact that I may pluck the string from beneath, and thank you for your advice about the way to divide metronome beat!
@JasonM: Yes, I've already practiced on one string and strangely enough, I find it the easiest way for me to have an acceptable speed, even though the tremolo is not quite even, there is always a small gap between two consecutive "piami"
https://youtu.be/j7hEQncfjNo
I'm not sure if there is something wrong with my wrist angle but the right side of my right hand usually tends to incline towards the guitar bridge. Maybe that is one of the reason which causes the abnormal tension with my pinkie.
Btw, I have no idea while the button which seems to be "Quote" is grayed out and YouTube embedded feature doesn't work 
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Date Mar. 31 2018 16:45:44
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: I need help to attain required f... (in reply to Piwin)
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As your post stuck in my mind, the dark side likes to comment some items.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
If I had to wager a guess of where it's coming from, I'd say that, although you're playing rest strokes with your thumb, you're probably not using your thumb to anchor your hand down. And that's one of the main advantages of flamenco tremolo: the thumb works as an anchor. So if you take just that first beat where you play the A 5th string as bass. You should be able to keep your thumb on the 4th string and play around with the other fingers, wave around or wiggle them about or whatever and your hand should just stay in the same place with no tension because the thumb is anchored down to the 4th string.
The thumbs base is moved by a large muscle which runs rectangular to the apparatus of the fingers. Depending on a player´s routine (of tensioning) the resting can be a considerable hindrance to fingers dexterity.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
Another possibility is that you're attacking the string too much from beneath. It doesn't really seem like that to me on your vids but it might explain why you have trouble with p on 6th and iami on 1st. Your hands really don't seem to be small enough for that to be a problem but if you're attacking the strings really from beneath, then it would make sense since you'd have to sort of overextend your hand and "claw" your way all the way down there under the string.
Not contradicting this particular consideration, I´d like to mention a video where P.P. instructs a stagnating beginner, saying that he shall not plant from above, but bring down the wrist (for a hook shape of the hand so to say) and pluck from beneath. And I think some of my best runs to have been with such a posture too.
Benefit being that there is no need for extensor engagement in order to bring back plucking fingers into pre planting position. With this posture poise tends to reside where gravity commends. When accompanied with triggering from the great nuckle while the fingertip being lose / flexible to allow passing the string through giving in (= guarding flesh / angle wise delayed nail) things can work out very nice.
I think it was you who mentioned these days, how to pluck by use of only the flexing muscles (hence anatgonists entirely released), and that the impulse should merely encompass a neural triggering sized to overcome the strings resistance (ending right there after overcoming the string / with the released finger falling back into poise right after the pluck and all by itself).
That, I believe, is the main ingredience to seamless playing and utmost of separate finger dexterity.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
Last thing, if you're working with a metronome, I would forget about putting the click on each stroke. That might help you make sure you've got perfect evenness in your tremolo but it's not conducive to building speed. Put the click on each beat and do quintuplets. First because evenness is fairly unimportant in flamenco tremolo and second because conceptually it puts you in a spot where piami is just "one movement" and not 5 separate movements, something you really need if you're going to acquire speed.
And this, I think, is one of the first subordinates to that main ingredients.
If image in mind (or on same token: anticipation) and neural execution will figure individual fingers one by one, fluent technique seems about impossible. All one may end up with would be a kind of fast stumbling along.
I used to suggest to learners that they may imagine a rake evenly brushing against bars. Though a bunch of "fingers" in separate action, it to be a single move in mind and in cortex triggering.
All, so it seems to me, secrets of the hare and the hedgehog.
All of the arts appear to have of those.
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Date Apr. 2 2018 14:40:54
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: I need help to attain required f... (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
... So maybe it works, but not for the reasons stated.
The fingertips are not akin to free-falling objects - there is resistance from tendons and muscles restricting a freely-unfolding finger; also a finger/tip unfolding has to pull on the flexor tendon and push the extensor tendon out of the way. This makes gravity a minor force in the mechanics of returning a fingertip to its pre-stroke position.
This is all correct. However, the idea is employing conductive factors and reducing countering ones.
In this case hence aiming at reducing extensor activity and with that contrary neural and muscular action of antagonists / protagonists to a minimum.
With a posture for plucking from above chances increase that the pre planting position may be ending up beyond poise. And whenever that is the case required extensor activity increases in order to return fingers to starting position.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
I think extensors are always employed to varying levels, regardless of whether the person feels that or not. More so when speed is important - there is just no time to wait for some sort of slow friction-mediated gravity "fall" to reposition the fingertip to its pre-stroke place.
In all arts that include motoric skills in the sense of economy, precision or speed, advance comes with reduction / elimination of needless engagement in general and reduction of antagonist muscles in particular. If you can reduce that to the mere entraining of the antagonist resistance, it will mean peak of motoric efficiency.
And, as neural engagement presents the most of energy consumption / exhaustion, improved allocation of muscle activity through shifting all that can be overtaken by larger muscles (closer to torso) will add to the energy saving through eliminated counter activity.
(And not at last, avoiding constant contrary neural firing [as a very common phenomenon among learning / imperfect practitioners] omits cortex faulty programming.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
More so when speed is important - there is just no time to wait for some sort of slow friction-mediated gravity "fall" to reposition the fingertip to its pre-stroke place.
When it is about absolute max speed of the right hand finger plucking I suppose there is no way without some stiffening / tensioning, and possibly counter activity through active repositioning.
However, in how far should again depend on preconditions of execution routine. The less of ballast the less of waste.
Regarding lack of time that you mention:
The more of superfluous impulse, acceleration and pace there be omitted the more time for release should be gained.
If I may try to make that more clear:
Imagine a stroke with the plucking finger exerting force overly (specially with fingertip stiff and corresponding power required to overcome the string) and thus with the movement far surpassing the string after pluck / the fingertip being led towards the palm (maybe even contacting it, as a maximum of pace).
In this case impulse and pace will be at a maximum. Hence, the neural triggering will be prolonged time wise, leaving correspondingly no time for the protagonist muscles to release after pluck. (If not even, there being almost no release at all, with the antagonists being due to actively reposition the fingertip against the still tensioned protagonists.
Now as opposite example imagine impulse to be sized only as much for to just overcome the string. (With the finger tip ceasing movement very shortly after surpassing the string.)
In this case the neural triggering for the fingers protagonists will be ceased way earlier, leaving more of time for returning to poise.
Naturally, as you said, there is no total suspense, but it doesn´t mean that there was no economical execution in the same time, that results into a fundamental difference of execution in contrast to counter firing neuronal engagement, physiological blockage, waste of energy, of time and exhaustion.
PS:
Try this:
Hand at poise dangling down from your shoulder. Make a lose fist and release again. Rinse & repeat several times in a row.
Now make same thing with your arm parallel to the ground / palm facing downwards.
See how perceivably required extensor activity increases?
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Date Apr. 3 2018 11:26:15
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: I need help to attain required f... (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
This is all correct. However, the idea is employing conductive factors and reducing countering ones.
In this case hence aiming at reducing extensor activity and with that contrary neural and muscular action of antagonists / protagonists to a minimum.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
I think extensors are always employed to varying levels, regardless of whether the person feels that or not. More so when speed is important - there is just no time to wait for some sort of slow friction-mediated gravity "fall" to reposition the fingertip to its pre-stroke place.
In all arts that include motoric skills in the sense of economy, precision or speed, advance comes with reduction / elimination of needless engagement in general and reduction of antagonist muscles in particular. If you can reduce that to the mere entraining of the antagonist resistance, it will mean peak of motoric efficiency.
Why would you bring up "reduction in antagonist muscles" - this could apply as a principle IF flexors and extensors work at the same time, which is not the case here. You are using that phrase outside its scope of application. (or else you think that I am advocating for extensors working at the same time as flexors - not sure why that would be since the gravity argument only makes sense if the flexor is not engaged and I was replying in that same context).
Where we agree is that proficient stroke execution involves an impulse-like force from the flexors at precisely the time it is needed and at that same time no other muscles not needed are engaged. (Note, again, the extensor function comes after that moment). However, this is a different issue from your claim to let gravity do the reset for the next stroke without involving extensors - which is what I objected to.
Also, when I said that there is no time during a speedy scale "to wait for some sort of slow friction-mediated gravity "fall" to reposition the fingertip to its pre-stroke place" - I was talking about a proficiently executed stroke.
It seems so obvious to me - the gravity argument, let's say it is applicable and you can treat the fingertip as a free-falling object, still only gives you a set time interval because it depends on the mass of the fingertip and the acceleration due to gravity, so you can calculate the time it takes from rest (just after the stroke execution) to in-position ready to go again. That amount of time is a constant, so clearly at some point as picado (say) speed increases, you would run into a problem as that time interval would become too long compared to the time needed for reset.
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Date Apr. 3 2018 15:41:38
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Pororo
Posts: 6
Joined: Jun. 7 2017
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RE: I need help to attain required f... (in reply to Pororo)
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@Ruphus: I've been experimenting it for a while, even before I created this thread, however that doesn't really work for me. As a classical guitar player, I'm not familiar with that kind of motion when fingers pluck the strings from underneath, well, sort of impulse-like motion I suppose.
@quote:
ORIGINAL: Cervantes
My perception of your video is that your fingers are very stiff and not relaxed. Also you fingers seem to be excessively curled at the last joint.
When you pluck the string let you finger tip move more towards your palm with the movement from the knuckle joint. You can try this slowly one finger at a time.
Listen to some Sabicas, he had a perfect tremolo.
What did you mean by mentioning "the last joint", that's the joint near the fingertip or the joint which connects fingers to the palm?
@kitarist: indeed staccato has helped me achieve a better "string touching" feeling, more precise strokes. BTW, I see that your avatar and the one of a member of Delcamp - "Guitarrista" are exactly the same, so I'm not sure if that's you too 
My nickname on that forum is "Guitar Maniac"
@All: Recently I've even been experimenting further patterns such as sextuplet tremolo "pimami" / "pamima" and some 3-finger patterns like "pimi" / "piai"/"pmam"...
I feel quite uncomfortable and unbalance with "piai", as well as traditional pattern "piami" as stated at my original post, I guess it's due to the fact that I have to balance the pair "i-a", which is also the reason for my rigid pinky every time I use these kinds of pattern.
Any pattern starts with a finger is not any better, when my a finger flexes, my pinkie flexes too and staying there close to the palm when the next finger after "a" plucks the string...
For "pmami" or even sextuplet "pimami", it's much more balance and comfortable for me, but again there is another problem with the repetition of "m" finger that inhibit further speed development, because m and a finger are very dependent on each other.
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Date Apr. 22 2018 13:43:20
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