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Hello everyone! I'm a beginner who need some advice with picado. I took some lessons a while ago but couldn't continue due to some life difficulties and then depression got me for over 3 years now. The guitar and music are a huge help for me. Now Back to the subject my questions are: 1. Is it correct to think about having nails as just an extention to the flesh? ( In other words the nail is short stops where the flesh ends and just a tough part of the finger tip to push the string down as it passes the very end of the tip finger) as opposed to thinking that the nail is long and a seprate entity or an attached hard surface to the finger that is totally responsible of making the sound ( the image here is like a pick attached to the fingers)????
2. In Picado, Do fingers start from up high in the air to hammer the string with some weight and pass through the string to rest or it starts from total relaxed state while finger is planted then Just force it through the string to rest???? ( in other words is it correct to think about picado like the piano hammers??? )
3. How often is the forearm used to help picado while trying to keep the whole finger firm so most of the movement and the power comes from the forearm just like the pulgar ???
Excuse my bad English as it's my second language. Really Appreciate any pointers in advance. Happy Holidays!
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to Ronny)
1. No. The nail makes the sound although the fingertip flesh is always involved due to planting before plucking. To the point where if the nail is broken the show is over unless you do some quick repair to the nail.
2. No, it is not like hammers, although it might look like that superficially due to reset action (stepping over the string). The main point is you need to rest on the string first and this is called “Planting” as in planting your finger on the string first. Playing staccato with the right hand fingers is a good way to train this for more speed and control.
3. The forearm doesn’t move, the shoulder might pull the entire arm up or down to orient the fingers on 3 groups of strings at a time. Of course the tendons that pull on the fingers to move them are in the forearm and you will feel them operating.
RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to Ricardo)
Thank you for taking the time to reply me Ricardo.
So the action of pushing string down in picado comes from the nail only and flesh is just to mute and a sensory tool right???? Or is it a combination of the flesh doing the pushing first then the nail finishes it at the very end??
I cut my nails really short recently and it's much easier to execute a stronger movement from big knuckles and i thought maybe i should think about the nails as just a hard stoppage to help the soft finger tip like having a good callus to move the string from its resting state to vibrate not more than that.
RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to Ronny)
I'm pretty much a beginner when it comes to picado but I'm finding the best nail length for me is to have them pretty much even with the tips of the fingers. That is to say that if you're looking at your fingers from the palm side of the hand the nails will be just showing behind the finger.
RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to rayian)
Hi Rayian!
I'm trying to understand if the actual push comes from the nail only vs the flesh starts it then the nail giving the very last touch??? The swing between having longish nail vs having very short nail as you described, is driving me crazy. I'm trying to figure out how you can have a very short nail and the nail is responsible of making the tone?? Do i have to push the flesh way down to get more of the nail to attack the string?
RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to Ronny)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ronny I'm trying to understand if the actual push comes from the nail only vs the flesh starts it then the nail giving the very last touch??? [...] I'm trying to figure out how you can have a very short nail and the nail is responsible of making the tone?? Do i have to push the flesh way down to get more of the nail to attack the string?
It kinda depends on the 3D shape of your fingertips and the shape of the nails. But the general idea is that there should be a smooth transition - for the string - from the flesh onto the nail and then a release somewhere along the nail edge.
The whole thing is a somewhat complex interaction and movement between the flesh, nail and the string. When people say "push down", this is a statement of emphasis, not a statement completely describing the movement. The string travels along the flesh+nail end of your finger as you execute a hinge motion from the MCP hinge ("big knuckle joint"). As you do this, the string gets pushed down as well as a bit sideways (so the direction to "push down" in this context means not to let the string just move sideways toward the neighbouring string on the bass side without also "sinking down into the guitar".)
While this motion is happening, the string first travels stuck where it touched your flesh or the flesh/nail point (held by static friction), then it rolls around itself a bit (so it starts traveling a bit relative to your fingertip) till rolling friction cannot hold it where it is so it starts slipping quickly around your finger while you keep moving your fingertip. It travels along a portion of your nail edge and gets released somewhere along its edge. The exact point depends on anatomy as well as hand+stroke setup. At that point of release it is only touching the nail edge.
"Pushing down" and release from the nail has to do with deriving a good tone. It is not saying that this is the only physical way to make a string vibrate - it is just that a flesh-release tone does not really work for flamenco, and a sideways-only displacement for the string just makes a bad and weak tone - for any guitar - because of how the resonator works on a guitar. Hence the advice to make sure to push the string down to get a good tone.
You do not have to be aware of all this happening - in fact it is probably counter-productive to focus too much on details while practicing the motion instead of just "feeling" a good motion and release. I am describing it in more detail mostly to help you avoid common misinterpretations which can lead to a lot of practicing of wrong movement and even injuries.
RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to kitarist)
Thank you Konstantin for the detailed response. You cleared a lot of the confusion i had and specifically the idea of smooth itransition between nail and flesh. After a couple hours of slow practicing i noticed that i don't need to push downward on the string while planting but it's all about while forcing the finger tips through the string ( which is a sideway movement ) i need to keep the wrist in a very fixed position to support the finger movement. If i plant little bit deeper in the finger tip i get the push down action as a by product of the finger sidways movement. In other words while the finger is just trying to force itself through the string it planted on to rest on the, the string will get pushed down and rolls over the tip untill snap off of the nail at the peak of the tension. Planting little deeper in in the tip will give a bigger snap which leeads to a bigger vibration and sound. I think the emphases on pushing down the string creates unwanted confusion in picado. The pushing down will be be a by-product of the sidways movement of the finger. please correct me if im wrong.
RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to Ronny)
If I remember correctly, Scott Tenant (Pumping Nylon) breaks the basic movement for free stroke down into three parts. Planting (positioning), then applying pressure to the string, then release. You could do the same for apoyando (and picado). Placement, pressure, release. The difference between free stroke and apoyando (picado) would then just be on the "release" part. Free stroke would be more at an angle whereas picado is releasing downwards. At least that's how I think of it.
As for nails, whatever way you think about it (separate from the flesh or extension), the important part is hitting the sweet spot between the two.
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RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to Ronny)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ronny After a couple hours of slow practicing i noticed that i don't need to push downward on the string while planting
Right, if you are just planting, i.e. positioning, you have not yet initiated the stroke movement, so you would not be pushing down at that moment - your finger is just touching the string at the right place on your finger, ready to go.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ronny but it's all about while forcing the finger tips through the string ( which is a sideway movement ) i need to keep the wrist in a very fixed position to support the finger movement. If i plant little bit deeper in the finger tip i get the push down action as a by product of the finger sidways movement. In other words while the finger is just trying to force itself through the string it planted on to rest on the, the string will get pushed down and rolls over the tip untill snap off of the nail at the peak of the tension. Planting little deeper in in the tip will give a bigger snap which leeads to a bigger vibration and sound. I think the emphases on pushing down the string creates unwanted confusion in picado. The pushing down will be be a by-product of the sidways movement of the finger. please correct me if im wrong.
This isn't quite right. Yes the pushing down is in a way a by-product of the movement of your fingertip and of its interaction with the string, but you ARE pushing down(*) (there is a force component into the soundboard, along with a force component sideways). Also, changing the place you plant on your fingertip is not a good strategy for controlling the amount of pushing-down - since doing so means you are not really deriving the benefits of consistent planting for precision and speed.
Varying the setup of your hand so the "hinge" of the MCP joint is less or more behind the string you are playing (well, the vertical projection of the hinge onto the plane of the strings) is typically how you would do it instead. But this is just an approximation, or a model - not the complete reality.
To zeroth approximation, your finger is curved but "stiff", only rotating from the MCP joint - like a curved pendulum (which makes the fingertip move in an arc). The placement of the joint has to be so that it allows the arc of the fingertip movement to push the string down and out of the way in just the right way - as opposed to your fingertip just getting stuck. How curved your finger is depends on comfort/preference.
But in reality accomplished players can use other degrees of freedom to control the tone and volume or for string-crossing(**) - they can allow flexibility in the finger segments, i.e. moving a bit from the second and/or tip joints. Beginners can't think about all that, though. And I haven't really mentioned angles or wrist setup or nails shape or that ami fingers have different lengths or..
Also, [it seems to me that] there is not just one way to achieve amazing technique - partly because of the individual anatomical differences, but also it seems that there are many ways to make it work. Basically the equation of technical greatness has multiple valid solutions :-) It is almost easier to describe what not to do or what not to focus on.
(*) If you don't push down at all, it will be your finger going around the string instead of the string going around the finger - try slowly dragging your finger across the strings - your fingertip will travel up and down as it dips between the strings and then "climbs" to go over each string as you drag it gently from trebles to basses.
(**) Ricardo talks about this in another thread - basically you have to be able to play not just the string you are on but also the strings on either side of it, from the same hand/wrist/joint position; this necessitates some movement from the other two joints.
EDITED to add the "If you don't push down at all" paragraph.
RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
If I remember correctly, Scott Tenant (Pumping Nylon) breaks the basic movement for free stroke down into three parts. Planting (positioning), then applying pressure to the string, then release. You could do the same for apoyando (and picado). Placement, pressure, release. The difference between free stroke and apoyando (picado) would then just be on the "release" part. Free stroke would be more at an angle whereas picado is releasing downwards.
Right, but aiming for a different release does change the overall motion so that the string travels on a different, shallower, trajectory, and is released at a different position relative to apoyando release position in space - not so much into the sound board and a bit more horizontally displaced. This makes for the different sound of apoyando vs. tirando - not implying you didn't know that, just clarifying for the original poster .
EDIT: I wanted to upload a figure, but the foro gives an error on upload.
RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to kitarist)
Thank you Knostantin again and everybody.
I found this video on youtube and it's gold for any beginner: Picado by Terry fleming Side note: the movement is exaggerated in the video so you get the idea of the attack in picado ( planted finger explodes with a snap on the string with a combination of downward and sideway movement )
Many thanks to all the members and admins in this great flamenco school.
RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to Ronny)
With all due respect to Terry Fleming (I know he's introduced a lot of people to flamenco in France), I honestly wouldn't replicate what he's doing here. What he shows at 5:45 sums up the movement he's doing and it's just playing from the middle joint. He says the power should come from the knuckle but that's not what he's doing at all when he plays (what power are you getting from the knuckle if that first phalange just stays straight like he's doing?!). So do what he says but not what he does! Here's a video from Ricardo that explains it nicely.
@kitarist yeah I got an error message the other day when I tried to upload a file. Except mine wasn't a helpful figure but a stupid picture for that thread about aliens
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to Ronny)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ronny I found this video on youtube and it's gold for any beginner: Picado by Terry fleming Side note: the movement is exaggerated in the video so you get the idea of the attack in picado ( planted finger explodes with a snap on the string with a combination of downward and sideway movement )
I think you should listen to Piwin on that one and check out Ricardo's video instead.
Also, when practicing picado, you have to work on (1) not engaging muscles in your arm that you do not need for the stroke (i.e. avoid extra tension), and (2) make the force input as precise and short as possible to create a full fat sound - like a strong impulse at the precise time you need it, but very brief. It should feel like you've turned off your pushing the moment the string snapped and by the time your fingertip got to rest on the string behind, it did not have any force in it, just touched.
Doing fast picado ideally should not feel like a lot of work or tension; you can get a really nice fat tone and yet feel like you are hardly doing any work - because of all the micro-rests for your muscles in between the super-focused short but strong impulses. It will take time and careful practice to get there, though; I am just mentioning this to warn against practicing the wrong thing which would be practicing with excessive and unfocused force and engaging all sorts of muscles that do not actually participate in the stroke itself.
@Piwin: Well, alien research is also important - just ask the Pentagon
P.S. Ronny, I just remembered a great video by William Kanengizer on the topic of fingertips, flesh-nail transition and nail length and shape(*) - it has lots of good explanations that would apply to that part of your original query:
(*) Just try not to wince when he rips a "nail" off of its "fingertip"
RE: Some thughts and questions about... (in reply to kitarist)
Thank you Piwin and Knostantin. I'm watching Ricardo's explanation and very informative. I really like William kanengizer's stuff. He is such a great guitarist and teacher.
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