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GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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 GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT
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Firstly, let me apologise for repeatedly raising these boring old cultural questons...
But I was watching a programme on BBC4 recently about Django Reinhardt. It was a documentary, but quite sharply done and very revealing.
One thing that struck me was the attitudes of the people featured. Many claimed to be big DR fans, but knew little or nothing about the man himself and his background. Some were "obsessive" types and seemed to have an unbalanced passion for the man and his music... influencing virtually every part of their lifestyle.
Others seemed to have an appreciation for his music, but appeared to care little for the man himself and his culture. A good quote was from a Japanese enthusiast, who agreed that "there was a place in Japan for Gypsy Jazz, but NOT for gypsies!"
In fact many of the locals near where Django used to live were quite un-complimentary about gypsies in general.
DR was a gypsy, and some of the people interviewed were gypsies too. Some of them seemed enthusiastic about DR really just because of what he represented, rather than because of his music. A few didn't seem to know much about him at all.
Although obviously very talented, issues were raised about DR's character. And he was rumoured to have been unpleasant at times. It is also believed that he performed for the Nazi party whilst many of his gypsy colleagues were being persecuted by them.
I found the whole programme fairly interesting. Some people trying to get as close to the spirit of DR as possible, others doing the same, but in completely different ways. Many interpreting the man and his music to suit their own needs.
It all brought me back to a recent discussion on the foro where some members were debating guitar skills versus personality... which is better and can the two be combined well. Its struck me that very few people actually knew what the spirit of DR was, and so their attempts to get close to it may have been unsuccessful.
Perhaps those in the documentary that seemed to get closest to capturing the spirit of Django were those who focused mainly on his music.
But I'm not sure if its really important to get close to the spirit of a musician, as long as "the music" is enjoyed... is it?
Translating this into Flamenco terms, I was wondering what it actually means to be a gitano (or gypsy) and if this is really relevant to understanding Flamenco as a whole. Or perhaps it doesn't matter whether you understand a musician's personality and culture, and music appreciation is all that is required?
BTW... are the gypsies associated with Django of the same lineage of those associated with Flamenco?
Sorry... that really was a bit long and boring, wasn't it?! 
James
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Date Jan. 28 2006 18:11:49
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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I have had a lot of dealings with gypsies, mainly spanish and romanian, and am friends with several. In my experience, it really depends how deeply involved in the clan or old fashioned they are, that affects they way they act or play music. For flamenco, there is gypsy flamenco and non gypsy flamenco, just like you have american jazz and "gypsy jazz". Same with spanish rumba vs french gypsy rumba. These are ways to stereo type the music and the people who play it, but there is a reason to make distinctions. That does not mean you won't have gypsies in that culture that DON"T play or sing or whatever, in the typical way all their cousins do. Likewise you will find non gypsies that really undertand how to play like a gypsy, and some in fact make the culture there own. I know both kinds and could give examples. But my point is, there IS a distinction to be made, understood by those involved (actual players, not the hippies). You don't have to be a gypsy to play flamenco, or even play "gypsy flamenco", but if you can play, you will start to understand the subtlties of the distinction.
And just because you are gypsy, does not give you a gold key to get "into" whatever gypsy music style you want. Gitanos from spain don't care about Django necessarily, nor do Romanian Gypsies care anything about cante jondo. In fact you have closed off separate clans right in side a certain musical style, that don't get along. I can't tell how many times I have heard gypsy friends tell me "you see those gypsies over there, they are the bad ones, stay away". There are predjudices everywhere, and I have seen first hand how they get born. There were 3 clans of romanian gypsies that used to come to one of my restaurant gigs and take over the place when we played. They eventually got BAND/prohibited literally from coming into the place, HERE in the USA! One gypsy friend told me "good!, you don't want that clan where you play", knowing HE too was prohibited. No one knows better what kind of problems arise when a group of gypsies get together, than the gypsies themselves, LOL!
Ricardo
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Date Jan. 28 2006 19:21:25
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Ryan002
Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore
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RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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Here's a domino effect. Many people think gypsies are untrustworthy, therefore, it is harder for them to find a place in society, and to find work. This prejudice eventually results in "untrustworthy" behaviour from the opressed minority, whose actions result from dislillusionment or lack of social support, which then results in a re-affirmation of the idea tha they are all untrustworthy. Etc, etc.
That aside, I do believe music reflects on personality. DR, like Picasso, like many other artists, are particularly free spirited individuals. They felt very little need to chain themselves with responsibility or obligation, and expressed themselves to a degree most of us would never dare. It's not a good thing, it's not a bad thing. It's simply the way they are, and it suffuses their work. It is possible to be drawn to this sort of intensity even if you feel they are ethically questionable.
Paco Pena's sense of a detachment, or a certain lack of synchronicity with the prevailing cultural trend, Juan Martin's apparent sense of nostalgia, Mozart's drive and enthusiaism and Wagner's hollow, vain antipathy can all be delievered in music, in terms often clearer than even actual behaviour.
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Date Jan. 29 2006 4:43:33
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Guest
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RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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quote:
I think i´t because the spanish gypsys were they only ones to have been in contact with arabe culture. The flamenco gypsy music are so very diffrent from the other gypsys music.
You should add, and this before arab music, that the Spanish gypsies got in touch with SPANISH culture and music. The spanish part is still the strongest influence in flamenco (phrygian scale and 12 counts)
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Date Jan. 29 2006 7:34:39
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Guest
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RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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Maybe this with the white tennis shoes etc, may it says more about the types you like to hang around with 
Just joking. Ricardo, I´m very sure that I can take you for a walk here in my village and you´ll find it VERY difficult to see who´s gipsy or not. Some (a lot) just don´t fit into these stereotype things. My landlord is gipsy, and I dont think you´d know if you weren´t told.
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Date Jan. 29 2006 18:38:06
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Just joking. Ricardo, I´m very sure that I can take you for a walk here in my village and you´ll find it VERY difficult to see who´s gipsy or not. Some (a lot) just don´t fit into these stereotype things. My landlord is gipsy, and I dont think you´d know if you weren´t told.
No doubt when races mix, it is hard to tell by their look. Same goes for identifying African or Asian who are mixed with something else. To complicate the issue, there are lots of non gypsies who hang out with them or do their music or whatever, that claim to be gypsy or part gypsy, but are NOT at all! I have a friend who admits to not having ANY gypsy blood, but is married to a gypsy, grew up with gypsy friends, raises his children with them, and part takes in the culture as if he himself were one, plays the music, dress, etc. Because of all this he feels it it gives him the right to call himself a gypsy. Ask him where he comes from, and he won't tell you all the details of his life, simply that yes he is a gypsy. Even though, it is easy to see by his face and features, he does not have the race in his blood.
He is not unique, I have met many who claim to be gypsy from whatever typical gypsy town, later to find out they are not at all gypsy by blood. So "gypsy" can be more a cultural thing than a race thing at times. I am sure there are gypsies out there that pretend they are "Italian" as well.
The Romanian ones I refered to in America that I know well, they are pure blood with arranged marriages, etc. Very distinct look. I know some Spanish gypsies who are mixed that are harder to tell for sure, but there is this thing with the eyes and eye brows/nose that gives it away if the blood is there.
Ricardo
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Date Jan. 29 2006 22:49:09
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sorin popovici
Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania
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RE: GITANOS... & DJANGO REINHARDT (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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I wanted to post several times on this subject ,but there are so ...touchy subjects for me.
I had some little troubles with some gipsies here.This is a very complex issue ,but the gipsies
here ...were marginalized for some time but I think to tell exactly who's fault is ,is not that simple.Now with all EU programs things started to turn around,and there are beeing made
some efforts to integrate the gipsies into society.
But it's not that easy,they are a closed comunity ..and u have the impression that they
dont wanna integrate.For example to discover in some vilage a mariage between a girl
of 14 years old and a boy ,doesnt seem quite tolerable...cause it's illegal.A lot of romanians
put a blame on them cause of the bad publicity we get in the world and it is true ...they
do take organized crime rather seriously.I worked in a net cafe ,for some money ..and
I got slaped in public by a couple of gipsies from a clan "corduneanu" cause I didnt do smth(the boss said ...u cant do nothing about it,the police is too slow ..for this sht)
...well.long story short...when they get organized,local autorities have great dificulties..if
it gets big ,the police solves it ...but small delicts are usually permited cause u cant do nothing about it.
I dont take it on gispy ,I know there are good and bad people wherever...but still this
integration process still has a lot to go.For example by law every kid at 7 years of age
has to go to school ..their kids usually dont.Now,they are poor ...and some dont go cause
they have no means...but u can find all sort of gipsies poor and quite welthy.
The romanians didnt quite like it when the gipsied started to call themself "romani".
We were afraid of the bad publicity they take upon them when they usually emigrate.
Romanian culture is very different from theirs ...they have their own language and all,and
it's not a latin language or smth.We here call them "tigani" and not "romani" though we
are quite familiar with the term.
Anyway ,it's very hard to explain it all...and I cant it will take more than 10 pages.
There are for sure bad and good sides of this story.But it's just too hard to say smth
general ,that maybe u should not even try ...U cant imagine how many politicians discused
this subject .
I think that flamenco is flamenco cause of the mixing with spanish culture.Sure arabic
culture is an important aspect ,but we also have in our gipsy and our romanian music
minor armonic scales ,melodic ..and scales with the 2+ interval.Romania fought a lot of
battles with the turks ,and was for a long time under the influence of the otoman empire.
But we had lot of influences like slavs (i hope that's a word) ,austro-hungarian empire,greeks ..etc. The miracle is that we have a latin language and nowhere near us
any other latin country.For example Spain , France ,Italy,Portugal are very close on the map.The latin language we have it from 106 AC when Traian (roman emperor) conquered
Dacia (where is now romania).Gee...how the hell , did I end up telling about this.
Read it all on wikipedia.
So, in a way in romania ..we had some arabic influences + some gipsies+ latin language=
still no flamenco .The thing is that phrigian scale ...I mean I remember when first seeing some flamenco on tv.It was just like Ricardo said ....I kept listening to a guy who
played guitar and didnt understand why doesnt he finishes the song ,kept awaiting for him
to finish the introductory part ....come on man ,play that Am
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Date Jan. 30 2006 1:44:12
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