RE: CITES Indien Rosewood

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Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

There is no way for them to know that you left home with no guitar and come home with one. Unless you admit it upon being asked at customs.

You can say the same of anything, like a watch. Customs can confiscate stuff if they are not satisfied with the explanation.

They could check your outbound baggage manifest, so perhaps travel out with an empty case

Guitar is always carry on. And it's the law anyway they have to let you try to take it on board, if there is no space and you have to tag it it is usually a gate check tag that you personally hold even if they send it on through baggage. I have never seen carry on items accounted for by an airline. I have never heard of customs taking personal items such as a watch or other goods even thought they might sift through your stuff. I have had my guitars checked out by customs officers dozens of times. The horror stories I have heard about seem like extreme cases.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2017 21:26:56

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I have never heard of customs taking personal items such as a watch or other goods even thought they might sift through your stuff.

I have had a guitar checked into the hold (long-haul international and budget within Europe). The UK is getting much touchier about carry-on allowance. I've also been questioned about my Omega and my cameras, depending upon where I have arrived from, so I guess I have been a bit unlucky.

p.s. when they seize something, they give you a receipt so you can make a counter-claim.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2017 23:56:36

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

From Australia's point of view, that person left without a guitar and came back with a guitar. So this is not the same as leaving and returning with the same guitar. I think the US already has specific instructions that this is not a gray area - i.e. you have to have left and returned with the same guitar for it to count as non-commercial movement not needing a certificate. Of course as as practical matter maybe nothing will happen at the point of entry - but you are playing the odds and some people may not be comfortable with that.

Please understand that I personally am NOT playing any odds. I have applied for the Cites papers, which takes way to long and then I hope my client wont have any problems. I know well enough how burocracy works to know that its stupid not to apply for the papers.

Besides that, the new CITES rules are FULL of grey zones. The most obvious one is what is going to happen with wood purchased before january 2017. Different countrys, different ways of dealing with that.
I think its great that steps have been taken to protect flora and fauna on planet earth, but right now its a bit of a mess.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2017 6:47:03

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

From Australia's point of view, that person left without a guitar and came back with a guitar. So this is not the same as leaving and returning with the same guitar. I think the US already has specific instructions that this is not a gray area - i.e. you have to have left and returned with the same guitar for it to count as non-commercial movement not needing a certificate. Of course as as practical matter maybe nothing will happen at the point of entry - but you are playing the odds and some people may not be comfortable with that.

Please understand that I personally am NOT playing any odds.

Oops - this is just a misunderstanding - I meant "you" as in general, or as in "one is..." - didn't mean you in particular (see "you have to have left and returned with the same guitar" before that - clearly did not mean you Anders there either).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2017 7:12:09

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Ricardo)

So basically under the CITES act for all Dalbergia on the Appendix II it is true that you can carry a personal amount of rosewood up to 10kg without needing a re-export permit.

So Anders Australian client will not need any paper work to take it home as by then it will be a personal belonging. Any issues at the Australian border will more than likely be of an import duty. The Advice given to me was to always include on the invoice that the guitar was made from pre convention rosewood for any future sales.

Coming back to the future of rosewood stocks. When you buy Rosewood that is not pre convention you should always receive the paper work for it from whom ever you bought it from.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2017 9:14:27

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Ricardo)

Thanks for clearing things kitarist.
If anyone is playing the odds, its CITES Denmark. I would be interesting if my client entered Australia without showing the CITES papers. To see what is right or wrong. I still find it a bit greyish and would like some real-world reference instead of hypothetical theory which is basically where we are now.

SEden. The problem is what to do with rosewood that we bough many years ago. I have a good amount of Indian Rosewood that I bought 7 - 8 years ago. There´s no CITES papers on it. What happens if I dont commercialize it the next lets say 10 - 15 years?
Some countrys like Spain and Germany have made a stock declaration where people in our situation could say how much of this and that preconvention wood they had in stock . Denmark doesnt do that. They they will allow the use of preconvention rosewood and make CITES export papers if I/we sign a paper saying its preconvention. But for how long.
To that we have to add the 5 -6 weeks that it takes to get the CITES export papers.
Its a pretty annoying subject.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2017 10:22:30

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Ricardo)

The UK hasn't done the registration of pre convention stock either. So to that respect we are in the same boat. I have already dug out all of the rosewood invoices I can find. whos to say what is in your stock was'nt bought at the moment it says on that invoice and that is all the proof you need. I'm not going to worry to much about it at the moment as it was actually really easy to get the re - export permit. I also think they will treat rosewood like cedrella in a couple of years and only require permits on raw timber.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2017 13:57:07

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

The problem is what to do with rosewood that we bough many years ago. I have a good amount of Indian Rosewood that I bought 7 - 8 years ago. There´s no CITES papers on it. What happens if I dont commercialize it the next lets say 10 - 15 years?

Probably like Brazilian that was outlawed in 1960 they let guitar builders get away with using it until 2004 or so (cut off date was 1992 but they didn't confiscate stock until 2004 as I recall). Probably if they ever put Indian in category 1 then you need to use up stock sooner than later or by some future date. Meanwhile you should keep any proof of payment you can find with dates on it such as credit card statement, bank statement etc (assuming you don't have the invoices from 8 years ago nor paid cash for your stock).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2017 14:27:16

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Ricardo)

I can't wait until someone makes Fauxzwood, imitation rosewood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2017 3:46:21

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I can't wait until someone makes Fauxzwood, imitation rosewood.

Madinter already stock it. I think its some kind of pressure treated pine with colour added to it. The sample I saw was actually very impressive.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2017 7:58:54

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Ricardo)

Hey that sounds great, I'll go look.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2017 8:50:29

rob2966

Posts: 19
Joined: Dec. 7 2015

RE: CITES Indien Rosewood (in reply to Stephen Eden)

(response to SEdens comments about Australia above)...

That is my understanding and seemed to be the same situation carrying my US made (Andy Culpepper) flamenco negra (EIR back and sides) across the border into Canada.

If Andy had shipped me the guitar directly he would need to have the export permits (which requires: permit from US Fish & Wildlife AND a designation for his business to export protected plant species from US Dept. of Agriculture AND US Customs to Authorize the export documentation at certain export facilities). We ended up getting all this done and then due to shipping costs I decided to pick it up from my US post office box anyway.

In that case, once I picked it up in the US, it became a personal instrument and the 10kg max then applies. I had the CITES export permit as well but never showed it (or told them I had it) when I got to Canada Customs. I simply paid my taxes and took my new guitar home.

However, it is nice to have the paperwork indicating my guitar's CITES status and I would keep it on hand if I crossed the border with my guitar...just in case.

Later
Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2017 9:55:19