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Hey guys, so I play a little bit of jazz, and I was wondering if there is any jazz style arpeggio (as in chord-run type arpeggios) played with picado in flamenco at all? Purely because I think it would sound very cool!
RE: Jazz style arpeggio's in flamenco? (in reply to Daniel108)
Maybe 'arpeggios' with 'picado' are not so common, ( I could be wrong here) as even the traditional jazz guys tend more towards a legato technique ( the metal and jazz fusion guys tend to pick each note more so ) Players like Nino Josele, Tomatito, Jeronimo Maya, Augustin 'El Bola' Carbonell ( and others ) have used jazz, or maybe more correctly, Brazilian-Jazz style sounds and arpeggios in some recordings so they may be worth checking out As to wether it's flamenco .... It's just great music either way I guess in the end a 'Picado arpeggio' would be a series of Thirds ( with added alterations or ornamentations to suit ) from a scale played in succession or pattern ? - great idea for sure
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Jazz style arpeggio's in flamenco? (in reply to Daniel108)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Daniel108
Hey guys, so I play a little bit of jazz, and I was wondering if there is any jazz style arpeggio (as in chord-run type arpeggios) played with picado in flamenco at all? Purely because I think it would sound very cool!
Please give an example of what you think a "Jazz arpeggio" is first of all. Next what is a "chord run" in your mind exactly? And last, why does it need to be picado when we have the more effective arpeggio technique itself? Because of improvising over changes is what you mean?
RE: Jazz style arpeggio's in flamenco? (in reply to Daniel108)
I termed 'arpeggio' here with 'jazz' because I was trying not to confuse it with what we think of as an arpeggio in flamenco. 'Chord run' was meant to clarify what I meant by 'arpeggio' but perhaps it wasn't clear. Both of the 'flamenco' and 'jazz' types of arpeggio are based on a 'deconstruction' of the chord, but the jazz type is more similar to a scale while the flamenco type is more like picking the chord itself 'as it is'.
By 'arpeggio in jazz' I was referring to the style of playing where the notes of a chord are played separately, for example a major 7 arpeggio would be played through the root, major third, fifth, major 7th, and then through the next octave and then back again, either horizontally or vertically over the fretboard. Similarly you could 'arpeggiate' any chord like dim7, m7b5, add9, or just a standard chord triad. It is not strummed, rather it is picked as you might pick a scale. That's why I connected it to picado, but I'm a beginner here so maybe there are more effective way of playing such things.
Hope that was clear...
That bulerias video that gerundino posted is pretty intense. I don't get the Django feel there, but it's a great piece nevertheless.
RE: Jazz style arpeggio's in flamenco? (in reply to Daniel108)
quote:
Hey guys, so I play a little bit of jazz, and I was wondering if there is any jazz style arpeggio (as in chord-run type arpeggios) played with picado in flamenco at all? Purely because I think it would sound very cool!
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Jazz style arpeggio's in flamenco? (in reply to Daniel108)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Daniel108
I termed 'arpeggio' here with 'jazz' because I was trying not to confuse it with what we think of as an arpeggio in flamenco. 'Chord run' was meant to clarify what I meant by 'arpeggio' but perhaps it wasn't clear. Both of the 'flamenco' and 'jazz' types of arpeggio are based on a 'deconstruction' of the chord, but the jazz type is more similar to a scale while the flamenco type is more like picking the chord itself 'as it is'.
By 'arpeggio in jazz' I was referring to the style of playing where the notes of a chord are played separately, for example a major 7 arpeggio would be played through the root, major third, fifth, major 7th, and then through the next octave and then back again, either horizontally or vertically over the fretboard. Similarly you could 'arpeggiate' any chord like dim7, m7b5, add9, or just a standard chord triad. It is not strummed, rather it is picked as you might pick a scale. That's why I connected it to picado, but I'm a beginner here so maybe there are more effective way of playing such things.
Hope that was clear...
Got it. So outlining a chord when doing a line, verses running scales up and down, or finger picking a chord. Well the answer lies in the difference of the picking technique vs the finger technique. When doing picado it is akin to strict alternate picking. But at times we can do economy or sweep picking, but for fingers it depends on directions. Some picking styles are directionally dependent as well (see troy grady on downward pick slanting). So alternate picking a fast arpeggios on guitar is awkward and rarely done, same deal for picados. We only do that for close voiced arpegios that cover only 2 or 3 strings max. Of course there are exercises to do across 6 strings, but for playing lines or improvising over changes or (case of flamenco proper) constructing a falseta, it is avoided.
For pickers the famous "sweep" arpegios are dealt with by dragging the pick and employing left hand fingering that separates the notes. Hope you know what I mean. In flamenco guitar this can be achieved in place of downward sweeping by the pulgar drag, and upward sweeping is trickier, using combo of ami, or arrestrar (dragging ring finger normally but any finger can be used).
Having available the super highly effective arp technique on fixed chords, coupled with open string voicings, in the arsenal of flamenco technique, it is rare to find examples of what you want, but it DOES happen. Best way to find examples is note the left hand more than the right hand. Here is a famous paco example at :50:
Actually it is based on two fixed chord shapes, but you can see how a normal sweep arpegio might be delt with.
Here is some medium speed E minor arp examples: 3:34
RE: Jazz style arpeggio's in flamenco? (in reply to Daniel108)
Many thanks Ricardo, that totally hits the spot. And that's an interesting comparison with picking styles that also gives food for thought. I'm also surprised how fast arp can be played as per the first PCD link you posted.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Jazz style arpeggio's in flamenco? (in reply to Daniel108)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Daniel108
Many thanks Ricardo, that totally hits the spot. And that's an interesting comparison with picking styles that also gives food for thought. I'm also surprised how fast arp can be played as per the first PCD link you posted.
Gerardo Nuñez taught us that lick in Sanlucar, RH was p-p-p-i-m-a- going up. Going back was a-m-i-m-i-p. And no you don't repeat the a finger, it was just so you can visualize how to put it together.
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