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A QUESTION ??
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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 RE: A QUESTION ?? (in reply to Florian)
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The way I look at it, is you have guys who can REALLY PLAY. Then you have guys that are great guys. Both types of person are valuable. A guy who can really play who is a great guy, is of course, the best thing, right?
There is a guy here in town who is a great player, I used to play with him a little. He is an old-school master, and I always tried to take lessons from him. But he just wasn't interested in teaching me. It was hard, because you want so much to learn, and it seems like such an opportunity. But eventually I made the realization that this person is not a nice guy, at least not to me. He doesn't want to help, and it's just a waste of my time trying to make this tiger change his stripes.
Same thing applies to any relationship, I think.
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Date Jan. 22 2006 22:39:39
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Conrad
Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
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RE: A QUESTION ?? (in reply to ToddK)
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Ya, and we must be careful to not judge quickly, because even Paco has days in which he probably is frazzled by everyone, just like we do. I mean, even the coolest people have mean days, no? I've heard stories about flamencos or famous artists met by people who've reckoned that "ya, he or she is nice", but then another who said "he or she is scum". It's all about circumstance.
By the way, I've never heard bad words about Paco from people who've met him first hand. He seems exemplary in nearly every respect. When I met him, he was world class, and totally a normal person. He could even sense my anxiety/euphoria, that he asked me a question! Maybe to put me at ease.
That said, I've heard stories about flamencos and drug abuse that would alienate a lot of people, but to me, it doesn't take anything away from my inexplicable respect for those flamencos and their music. I guess that's my answer to Flo's question.
As far as in Miguel's case, where there is someone who is regularly unkind or at least not very generous, well there is probably more to it than meets the eye.
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Date Jan. 23 2006 0:53:13
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sorin popovici
Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania
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RE: A QUESTION ?? (in reply to Florian)
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A)
I asked myself that ...some years ago ....my answer then was:
"if he's really a jerk .....he is not that skillfull ,u just dont have the means to show him that".
I agree even now with this answer , if the guy is a jerk ....this influences his skill in a bad way,the problem is that u can't say in what way ...cause u are not that skillfull.
Now, all my thinking stopped ...when I asked myself this : "Have u ever made a bad judgement on someone ?"."What if u are a jerk ...and u cant see it without envy and all that?"
B)
U can think this in another way too.Lets say there is no jerks and no nice people ,and people are sometimes jerks and sometimes nice ....depending on the person with whom are dealing.If that is so ...u might think that this is so releaving ,cause since all the people
are like that , and u are no exception , then u just dont have to ask yourself all this questions ...cause no matter what u do ,it's natural sometime to be a jerk...and u'll not
getaway.
After this I asked myself ...ok,if I am a jerk and everybody is sometime...why should
I try not to be one?Is there a reward for it?
Well,yes ...I think there is,but ..........  I cant prove it ....cause I'm not skillfull
I cant prove it ,but I can tell this story.I have just started to play guitar when I meet
this guy ,good electric player....he was far better than me (and probably still is ) , but
had this thing to say "why fingerstyle ,why classical? this music is dead,come on ...nobody
writes it anymore"(I didnt know at that time ,no Roland Dyens or things to say about con-
temporary classical (i still dont )).I argued a lot with that guy ,and I was very upset
cause I could see it in him ...that besides good skill , he had no respect for things.
Anyway ,at that fight ...the guy also had a friend that didnt say a word .U see, the other
guy ..was not really sure ,if his friend is right,and he asked me to show him some classical
and I did (the guy had super technique ) and he learned very very fast fingerstyle ,and
he was pretty good ...much better than me.After that...and after learning some more
he went to a music school , and now he's all about jazz and things like that.The other
good guitarist ...well , he is not doing so well cause he didnt want to go a music school.
My morale is that ...though he was very good ...not beeing open to things(and that's beeing
a jerk) didnt help him in the long way...and so I still believe that u should ask yourself
if u are a jerk from time to time...cause if u are , u are slowing your progress in learning
the skill that u want.
Cool , happy ending (but maybe I'm wrong ...and I'm a jerk that always feels that he is
right about people)
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Date Jan. 23 2006 1:33:42
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Francisco
Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA
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RE: A QUESTION ?? (in reply to Florian)
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I agree that this idea of labeling people is relevant to the observer. I try not to label people using such absolute terms as 'is' or 'is not'.
Staying with the Paco example: Anyone beyond the self-absorbed teenage years should know that it would not be very accurate to label someone after a brief encounter. So, this thought begs the question, what length of observation is required to label someone as 'is' this or 'is' that? I propose that it would take a lifetime. You would have to observe every action and every thought. Only then could you compare the number of times someone was pompous to the number of times they were humble, and come to a conclusion that warrants the use of the word 'is'.
However, I find it useful to switch the word 'seem' for the word 'is'. Therefore, after a brief encounter with mr. pompous, I feel comfortable stating "S/He seems like an @$$hole to me".
So, what about pompous mediocrity you ask? Well, the answer, I think, seems more obvious than what is implicite in the question. But, maybe that's just me.
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Date Jan. 23 2006 4:54:52
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PacoPaella
Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 7 2004
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RE: A QUESTION ?? (in reply to Florian)
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my experience is this: for some reason, there is, especially among guitarists a really strong competition, instead of (imho more healthy) artistical cooperation and co-existance. Guitarist who watch other guitarists tend to seek for weakness and flaws, many will try to put the exposed guy down. Why, i dont know. I have seen pianists dealing with each other and havent observed similar attitude - maybe the guitar is more "macho" so guys try to find a picking order.
However, if the difference between two players is huge, there will be peace. Almost noone will go to Paco or Vicente and wait for errors, you go there to enjoy.
I blame much of the irriations between guitarists on a comparable level on this. I have also noticed how much pressure it causes to play for other guitarists, compared to other audience. So, many guys i disliked when meeting them with the guitar, may very well be very nice persons in all other parts of life...
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Date Jan. 23 2006 16:06:49
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Ricardo
Posts: 14831
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: A QUESTION ?? (in reply to Florian)
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Regardless if the person or artist is nice or a jerk, open or closed off, optomistic or pessamistic, humble or arrogant, I think it is important that they are TRUE. I have known so many who are nice on the surface, but just to get to people, or to open doors. I can't stand that false hummbleness some exude just so people like them or respect them more. Everyone has good or bad days, but we are sometimes affraid to show our feelings because of what others might think. Yes there are snobs and arrogant artists, but also VERY ANNOYING people too that can get on your nerves. No need to HURT others feelings, but it is important to be honest and be yourself, who ever that might be.
Ricardo
PS, About competition, yes there is some truth. But, in my experience, when the level is more or less matched up, there is always comeradery, unless there is some other personal problem. The competition thing comes more from jealousy, when the levels are CLOSE but not really the same. Like you said, when the levels are very different, there are no problems. Regardless of jealousy, competition, etc, usually these problems are worked through if people are simply WILLING to sit down and spend some time playing together. I have actually met people better than me and worse than me NOT willing to simply do that.
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Date Jan. 25 2006 16:20:57
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: A QUESTION ?? (in reply to Florian)
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This may be getting off topic, but I have played with about 8 guitarists at gigs now, and EVERY SINGLE one of them wants to play louder than me. This either takes the form of them turning up their volume higher than me, or just putting it the same because they know they can play louder.
One time, I may have related this story before, I was at a wedding with another guitarist, and we were doing soundcheck. His girlfriend happened to be there. I said, "my guitar seems a little low," and he said, "Oh, I think it sounds awesome. It sounds perfect to me!" His girlfriend thought mine was too low, too, so I turned it up a little. At break, we noticed that I had forgotten to plug in. I guess at that point it became clear how much he liked my guitar sound!
There is another guy who just hacks his guitar, I mean he plays every note as hard as he possibly can. It's funny because other guys have commented about what a heavy handed player he is. I am not... most of the flamencos think I'm a classical guitarist, because I don't hit hard on lines, just strums. Again, I get the feeling that he enjoys being stronger, and always makes sure to set our levels equal although it's quite clear that he makes a lot more noise.
I also play in a trio, and the drummer and I always just kind of roll our eyes and laugh because no matter what, the other guitarist manages to be 20% louder than me. Even when I do solos, the drummer is always telling me, "he needs to turn it down, we can barely hear you," but it never matters. I wear earplugs playing with that group anyway.
I think it is a competition or dominance kind of thing. Part of it is that there seems to be a weird force that even if the levels are equal, most people will feel that they need a little bit more to be comfortable, but then there also seems to be a kind of alpha male/competition thing. Personally, I don't make a big deal about it unless it really adversely affects "the product". If it a strumming and improv, give and take sort of thing, the strummer really should know when to back off and give some space. But most of these guys just want to hack it and be the center of attention even when they aren't. My partner at my steady gig is definitely the least hogging I've played with so far...which is why I asked him to play with me at the gig.
By the way, the notion that pros don't indulge in competition is nonsense. You only have to go to Light and Shade and hear it from the caballo's mouth himself, when Paco is talking about the Guitar Trio and competing on stage every night.
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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Jan. 25 2006 17:02:44
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It's also like you wrote about "the product" being affected, and not only sounding good - if all musicians are having a good time it's more fun for everyone, tension during a performance sucks.