Characteristics a flamenco guitar instructor should have.

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31special

Posts: 19
Joined: Dec. 9 2009

Characteristics a flamenco guitar in...

Would appreciate hearing your thoughts on what characteristics a flamenco guitar instructor should have.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2016 20:21:07

pundi64

Posts: 234
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

I wish I had a instructor, but the nearest one that is even possible is up in Bangkok, some 200 Kilometers away.
There are about two up there, so I'll chime in on your thread also, to see what people have to say, if you don't mind.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2016 22:20:02

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

A deep appreciation and knowledge of the song.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2016 23:15:57

Piwin

Posts: 3561
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

A mullet

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2016 23:31:33

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

Patience

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2016 23:35:10

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

The ability to teach goes a long ways, a lot of people can play, but not so
many can teach ...

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 2:56:03

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

A mullet with the patience of a buddha.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 6:35:36

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

Hold back on falsetas - learners can pick these up from a variety of sources. Concentrate on technique, compass and all the vital things that distinguish flamenco from other art forms.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 8:29:05

payaso

Posts: 85
Joined: Dec. 7 2014

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

My first flamenco teacher, after a few good lessons, told me a tragic story about his family’s financial problems and wanted payment for 24 further lessons in advance. I paid him, but he then immediately emigrated. My second teacher was keen to borrow many of my classic (and irreplaceable) flamenco recordings. He then left town for an unknown destination without returning them. Fortunately my third teacher knew how to play and to teach – and how not to rob his students. Three good criteria.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 9:12:26

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to payaso)

@payaso

Only the first two were true gitanos

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 10:54:59

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

Only the first two were true gitanos

That's not a nice thing to say. I found in life that the most dishonest are those wearing white shirts, ties and yield brief cases. Gitanos have always been very kind to me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 11:42:47

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

1 they should actually be able to play flamenco for real (I have encountered far too many classical guitar teachers who "play a bit of flamenco" that they sight read from the JM book, who have some "flamenco pieces in their repertoire" etc. with no clue about cante or baile, or actual flamenco guitar (technique, compás etc.) often times they also offer the line " it's better learn basic classical guitar first and then we can do some flamenco later")

2 they should be able to teach the student how to hear rhythmically based on foot taps or palmas rather than offer intellectual analysis and explanations to compensate for the lack of this ability.

3 they should be able to assess where the student is at, and to create steps that will bring them on

4 patience

5 they should enjoy teaching

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 12:12:56

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

That's not a nice thing to say. I found in life that the most dishonest are those wearing white shirts, ties and yield brief cases. Gitanos have always been very kind to me.

To quote a stanza from Woody Guthrie's song about the outlaw, "The Ballad of Pretty Boy Floyd."

"Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen."

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 12:20:02

JohnWalshGuitar

Posts: 517
Joined: Aug. 10 2009

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

I would say empathy would be number 1, the ability to relate to the point of view of the student, to understand how they best learn a subject because each person learns in a different way. Along with this, the ability to break down a given topic and explain it concisely.
The other things like technique, knowledge of flamenco in it's totality are obviously necessary but are not very useful for all students if they can't be explained correctly for the individual student

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 14:40:32

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

1 they should actually be able to play flamenco for real (I have encountered far too many classical guitar teachers who "play a bit of flamenco" that they sight read from the JM book, who have some "flamenco pieces in their repertoire" etc. with no clue about cante or baile, or actual flamenco guitar (technique, compás etc.) often times they also offer the line " it's better learn basic classical guitar first and then we can do some flamenco later")

2 they should be able to teach the student how to hear rhythmically based on foot taps or palmas rather than offer intellectual analysis and explanations to compensate for the lack of this ability.

3 they should be able to assess where the student is at, and to create steps that will bring them on

4 patience

5 they should enjoy teaching

This is about as good a summing up as I've heard- but the classical guitar teacher can be ok if they tell the student flamenco is a another discipline and I can find a flamenco teacher that you can study with concurrently, and I can show you the flamenco stuff I know.

Most classical teachers are nice folks , the ones I like to ride herd on are those that show thinking accompaniment is going to be easy because it only uses a few chords. Oh yeah sure, easy stuff.

Today I think there are many students who have benefited from study with a classical and a flamenco teacher at the same time. I hope the two worlds figure out ways to dove tail together. I love the idea of specializing in flamenco playing, but I have heard many good players who manage to work some elements of classical and flamenco together.

Although if a person only wants to learn flamenco your criteria is pretty good. The other thing is to find a teacher who plays out professionally in the flamenco scene and go with someone regarded for accompaiment.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 14:46:29

Morante

Posts: 2180
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

Only the first two were true gitanos

I have been living in Cádiz for 18 years and have always been involved in flamenco. I know almost all of the gitanos and their families and consider them friends. The only people who have tried to rip me off have been payos

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 16:01:57

Piwin

Posts: 3561
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to payaso)

Sorry to hear that payaso. At least the 3rd one did the trick!

Something to pay attention too is quite simply whether the teacher asks you to play and actually listens and watches. If you just want to learn a falseta, then I guess it doesn't really matter if the guy just starts playing and that's it. But if you're look for insight on your own technique and sound, then you need someone who pays attention to that. One of the best classes I've had so far was with a teacher who picked up his guitar maybe once during the whole 45min we spent together. He brought to my attention a lot of issues that I simply hadn't noticed and may never had if someone else hadn't pointed them out to me.
To me, that ability to notice things and point them out in a way the student can understand, which has to be based on a thorough knowledge of flamenco, is much more relevant than how "good" the teacher is as a player.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 16:53:09

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

Patience is important. Equally important is the instructor's watching closely and correcting you when you are even slightly off-track. From the beginning my teacher, Paco de Malaga, not only exhibited patience with me that goes beyond the call of duty, he has never hesitated to drill me over and over when I am not getting it right.

For example, learning the tremolo. The trick, as taught to me by Paco, is to start slowly and practice, maintaining a dead-on, even tremolo with each stroke. Once you have mastered that, without sounding like a horse's gallop, you can increase the speed. The most important thing about the tremolo, however, is to maintain dead-even strokes.

Paco also taught me how to perform a stronger tremolo by utilizing a strong pulgar down-stroke on the basses, which automatically causes the iami tremolo strokes on the trebles to strengthen and project.

The key, though, is a good teacher will not only impart the basics to his student, he will also suggest tips and tricks to a better performance. And he will never hesitate to drill you again if you are not getting it right.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 17:36:00

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

I have been living in Cádiz for 18 years and have always been involved in flamenco. I know almost all of the gitanos and their families and consider them friends. The only people who have tried to rip me off have been payos

True gitanos have sense of humor.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 17:54:15

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

quote:

Would appreciate hearing your thoughts on what characteristics a flamenco guitar instructor should have.

It seems to me that it depends very much on your learning-style.

The “monkey-see monkey-do” approach is obviously the traditional one.

But I happen to be very bad at copying things (whether tennis strokes or Flamenco) unless I understand them first; and going from Paco Peña to Mario Escudero was a major transition.

Paco had (has) an analytical mind; and if I asked him where a particular falseta started, he could tell me it was beat 10.

Mario could only say, “It starts here”.

I was really glad I’d gone to Paco first (not vice versa), and already had the fundamentals of compás in place.

So you might want to bear your learning-style in mind when picking your own teacher. On the other hand, not everyone’s such a klutz as I was.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 21:51:06

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to 31special)

There's another important aspect to this subject, the characteristics of the student.

Some people want to play but lack the curiosity and drive that other people have. While some students get "lesson 1" for 3 months, other students are already at level "lesson 5" when they go for their second lesson.

This means that some people can learn with a not so good teacher while others will have a really slow journey even if they have a great teacher.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2016 22:17:38

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

Patience

Times 10!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 10:54:54

payaso

Posts: 85
Joined: Dec. 7 2014

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to Ricardo)

I think we need a thread on desirable characteristics of students – just as crucial as what the teacher can offer.

Some students today don’t want to be TAUGHT: that’s out-moded and full of oppressive overtones of domination, paternalism, imperialism, etc. etc. etc. What the student needs is for the teacher to foster and appreciate the student’s creativity and individuality. Rather lacking, I think, in many flamenco guitar wannabe’s. . .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 11:16:46

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Today I think there are many students who have benefited from study with a classical and a flamenco teacher at the same time. I hope the two worlds figure out ways to dove tail together. I love the idea of specializing in flamenco playing, but I have heard many good players who manage to work some elements of classical and flamenco together.

In the ideal world this is how it should be. I also encourage and demonstrate the subtle differences to students I encounter that have classical background. (I often use Bach borree in E minor to show for example pulgar and I-m apoyando as it gets to the heart of the difference of technique that might affect a students sound and interpretations). But sadly, and to me strangely, I have in fact encountered the thing Mark Indigo warned about. One student called me about lessons and said he always wanted to learn flamenco, but his teacher insisted that he devote ONE FULL YEAR to classical guitar study first....in preparation for a lesson with ME!!

. I can't say for sure if this thing is about catching a student in an opportunistic way for $, or if it's simply ignorance. You don't see this problem so much with Rock-Jazz teachers. But maybe I am wrong and this is normal, but I assume (ignorance of the style differences) has to do with the nature of "Spanish Guitar" and it's rift that occurred during Segovia era as we have discussed.

Bottom line is I find some funny basic things technique wise that are easier for a beginner to pick up than a player with years of classical under the belt. The reason is simple: Practice makes PERMANENT, not perfect. I learned that from my 6th grade drum teacher. In my head I hear yoda's voice when I see some students with bad or "different" habits, "now you must UNLEARN what you have learned...."...that is harder to do than learning from scratch.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 11:19:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to payaso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: payaso

I think we need a thread on desirable characteristics of students – just as crucial as what the teacher can offer.

Some students today don’t want to be TAUGHT: that’s out-moded and full of oppressive overtones of domination, paternalism, imperialism, etc. etc. etc. What the student needs is for the teacher to foster and appreciate the student’s creativity and individuality. Rather lacking, I think, in many flamenco guitar wannabe’s. . .

What it comes down to is simply respecting the fact that the tradition requires a different mindset and has it's own discipline and practices that need to be embraced whole heartedly. Just like learning a new language....in fact flamenco vocabulary words are a first step into the new world. Right in the first lesson I teach words like "golpeador", "compas", "falseta", "pulgar", etc.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 11:26:14

Morante

Posts: 2180
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

True gitanos have sense of humor.

It is easy to make racist remarks, thinly disguised by your insensitive sense of humour, on the internet, instead of making them face to face with a real live gitano.

Come to Cádiz and try it out ( we have a good hospital here).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 14:43:53

Piwin

Posts: 3561
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to Morante)

If you guys are going to have a go at each other, could you just PM each other please. This thread is interesting and I'd hate to see it get locked on account of this...

Thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 15:07:34

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Today I think there are many students who have benefited from study with a classical and a flamenco teacher at the same time.
I hope the two worlds figure out ways to dove tail together.
I love the idea of specializing in flamenco playing, but I have heard many good players who manage to work some elements of classical and flamenco together.

Yes, I wasn't intending to bash classical guitar, or classical guitarists in general, only that particular thing that I have come across quite a few times.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 15:50:03

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Bottom line is I find some funny basic things technique wise that are easier for a beginner to pick up than a player with years of classical under the belt.

tru dat. it seems easier to start with a blank slate.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 15:53:20

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Characteristics a flamenco guita... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

It seems to me that it depends very much on your learning-style.
The approach is obviously the traditional one.
But I happen to be very bad at copying things (whether tennis strokes or Flamenco) unless I understand them first;
and going from Paco Peña to Mario Escudero was a major transition.
Paco had (has) an analytical mind;
and if I asked him where a particular falseta started, he could tell me it was beat 10.
Mario could only say, “It starts here”.
I was really glad I’d gone to Paco first (not vice versa), and already had the fundamentals of compás in place.
So you might want to bear your learning-style in mind when picking your own teacher.
On the other hand, not everyone’s such a klutz as I was.

First off, calling the "traditional" approach “monkey-see monkey-do” seems to me highly derogatory.
When people take flamenco lessons, either in guitar or dance and say "I can't learn this way" I think the first thing they need to learn is how to learn the flamenco way.
That's why my second point was that: "they should be able to teach the student how to hear rhythmically based on foot taps or palmas rather than offer intellectual analysis and explanations to compensate for the lack of this ability."
I have been in guitar workshop classes where there is someone asking the guy next to him if he can write the falseta out for him, but while he's doing that he's not even giving himself a chance to learn it by listening.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 16:00:12