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Hi all... Just came across this post (in Spanish!). In short, the author complains (among other things) about the fact that flamenco guitar is not currently taught at existing music conservatories (in Spain, not sure about other countries?). It's a complaint I've heard a number of times. Yet, should flamenco guitar be taught at music conservatories? I have a feeling that learning flamenco guitar in a conservatory may deprive it of its bohemian roots, of its man-of-the-street feel. Am I being too radical, too purist...? As a way of comparison with other genres in other countries, I'm just thinking about learning to play the blues or country music in a music conservatory...? Has such thing happened? Is there a need to put folk music such as flamenco, blues or country in music conservatories...? I just wonder about other people's opinions on this...
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
There's the Rotterdam conservatory, I think they offer a masters in flamenco. It's probably pretty though to find enough "professor worthy" flamencos willing to......be professorly if that makes sense. Much funner to tour tablaos and drink fino all night.
Posts: 1759
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
You do not have to be German to play Bach........
There is indeed for more than 20 years a Master flamenco study at the concrvatory in Rotterdam. Paco Peña is the head professor there and takes people with him to study singing and dancing.
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
I'm with Sanlucar on this one, provided one doesn't completely bend flamenco to "fit" into Western music theory (maybe more of an issue with cante?). To me the "man-on-the-street" feel is a canard. All the stories of kids walking miles every day to go to the local music school suggest that the good ones are working on a whole lot more than shere intuition. Of course they also learn by playing "in real life", but isn't that true of any kind of music? And yes, there is probably something different in cantes mineros sung by people at work underground than what you'll hear in a tablao. But what are we suggesting? "Stay poor and play for us peasants"? ...
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From: The South Ireland
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
Well that's not all true...I went to the conservatory in Cordoba for a while .. Flamenco course ran by a guy called Vallejo , This course ran kind of parallel to other guitar courses, they would get other local flamenco singers , players in from time to time .. Also there was a student there called Rapha, who was really , good ..exceptional... I asked him once ...why are you here,?, cos you are way ahead of the whole lot of everyone ... His answer was , he wanted to complete the course to have the qualification , official , on paper , . Then he could officially teach himself , and start a little flamenco school that was recognised rather than just being some guy that played well ... A grant and stuff like that ,. His sister had already done that thing in the world of dance.. A great dancer , but with a qualification on paper ...and started a dance school... See
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: ViejoAmargo
As a way of comparison with other genres in other countries, I'm just thinking about learning to play the blues or country music in a music conservatory...? Has such thing happened?
Teaching jazz is probably a staple in just about every university music program in the USA. At my university, there were also classes in blues that covered theory/improvisation/etc.. There are several places you can get advanced music degrees in bluegrass. I don't have a ton of experience with any of this, but my impression is that it is exceptionally common to offer higher degrees and advanced training in common/folk music.
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
Piwin, I know exactly what you mean ("Stay poor and play for us peasants"?) Certainly that's not the idea, yet it's a very common notion in flamenco (I believe in blues, too) that unless one have not experienced poverty, misery, discrimination etc., it's not possible to "feel" flamenco (perhaps this would be more true of cante than guitar). That of course would imply that one must "preserve poverty, misery and discrimination" in order to keep flamenco "true to its roots", which of course is absurd (and also unethical and immoral). So perhaps it's just unavoidable that the nature of flamenco changes as social and economic conditions improve. So be it.
Very interesting and enlightening, all comments. Many thanks everyone for your feed back!
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From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to El Kiko)
Paco Serrano is Professor at the Conservatorio Superior de Música de Córdoba now: he studied in Rotterdam (graduating in 1996), for the reasons you state.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
I feel it would be great to offer it to any music student, but these things normally depend on professors. So if the professor can teach it, it probably is already going on. (CSFU for example). But to establish it by hiring a professor of "flamenco" even, just guitar, well, how can a music school justify such a thing if they have such a small studio? Like I said, it should be offered as an option for an interested student to focus on, but it's simply not practical for Academia. Sanlucar and other spaniards lament the fact that flamenco is overlooked at university, etc but the simple fact remains it is a small elite and difficult art form to study, much less to master. What sanlucar REALLY wants is simply, what he THINKS is 'prestige" amongst the intellectuals of high art, the same as Classical and Jazz music receives. I think that reasoning is BS. He should be proud to keep flamenco separate from that stuff IMO. As the gitanos are fine with, as you say, "street smart" understanding, which everyone knows is more advanced that any kid in a school can achieve with exams and such.
Ricardo, B.A. in music from James Madison University.....however on my wall hangs my Nuñez curso and Budweiser Beer school diplomas.
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
My reasoning exactly ;-) I suspect there is a certain kind of flamenco, the so-called "old-school", that won't survive as a popular art form. The popular art form will continue evolving as do the people that practice it. Oddly enough, one way of preserving the older forms could be through conservatories and the like. But I wouldn't be surprise that it become a sort of high-brow kind of music. Gitano kids nowadays are doing fusion with flamenco and rap. Seems to be the popular thing. Sigh. So goes it.
@Ricardo
quote:
What sanlucar REALLY wants is simply, what he THINKS is 'prestige" amongst the intellectuals of high art
Perhaps. The way he puts it on his very odd website is that a flamenco conservatory is like a movie theater that features porn. Whether you want to go in or not is up to you, but the choice should be yours and not merely the result of there not being any such movie theaters. I'm not sure I'd call that prestige, perhaps just a basic respect for the art form which is hard to come by in Spain. Without speaking of the issue of government grants and subsidies which are an obvious concern.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Ricardo)
For a little context, in my youth jazz was not only not taught in university or conservatory, jazz musicians were generally against it being taught there. The origins of jazz, like that of flamenco, were among the poor and dispossessed. The musicians were not necessarily illiterate. Louis Armstrong, one of the all-time great innovators of jazz, was taught his instrument at the school for orphans he attended. He was an outstanding student both as a player and in musical academics.
But my friend Frank Adams, who retired as Toscanini's lead percussionist, told a story of the time when he played in Paul "Pops" Whiteman's "jazz" band in the 1920s. Whiteman was an educated white musician who hired conservatory trained musicians to play written arrangements, but he also hired a few real jazz players for solo work. One of the soloists was the trumpeter "Wingy" Manone. "Wingy" because he was missing his left hand.
At the first rehearsal Whiteman started off the band on the written intro. Manone played something else. Whiteman stopped the band and said, "Mr. Manone, please play the part as written. Your solo comes later." Whiteman started up the piece again, and again Wingy improvised. After a couple more attempts, Whiteman stopped the band and said, "Mr. Manone, do you read music?"
Manone replied, "Sure Pops, just whistle it to me and see if I don't read it."
In the 1950s progressive jazz was certainly a strongly intellectual discipline. The Bop generation listened to Stravinsky, Milhaud and the other leading 20th century classical composers. They parsed the harmony and applied it to a densely intellectual music, partly intended to be hard for non-jazz musicians to penetrate.
Miles Davis notoriously dropped out of Juilliard, the most prestigious conservatory in the USA, where I think he was on scholarship, in order to join the downtown jazz scene. He fairly quickly became one of the leading innovators. Jazz wasn't anti-intellectual. It was deeply intellectual, but it was anti-establishment.
These days jazz is part of the curriculum of just about any respectable music school. I just got the brochure for the season of the Butler School of Music here at the University of Texas. I was surprised to see that there were both Mariachi and Conjunto ensembles on the schedule. I think I'll go hear them. I love the music, and I´m curious to see what effect academia has had on it.
But there's no flamenco, despite a large, world class classical guitar studio, and the great popularity of flamenco shows by Paco, Tomatito, Niño de Pura and Vicente Amigo. When Grisha and Jerome Mouffe gave a master class at the University, Adam Holzman, the head of the guitar studio, asked Grisha to teach the students rasgueado. Holzman himself paid very careful attention.
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From: Washington, DC
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
Gitano kids nowadays are doing fusion with flamenco and rap.
Rap as cante?! Further evidence of the decline of civilized standards.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
Rap as cante?!
Most of what I've heard tends to mix the two. It is usually structured with some kind of chorus with actual cante and rapped verses.
I personally enjoy rap from time to time, but sadly, at least in France, the highly political movement of the 90s gave way to today's bling/cars/women fashion, with the odd exception here and there. Most of what I've heard mixed with flamenco wasn't that "bling" kind of rap, but I'll admit that I can't handle the mix of the two styles. As Murtaugh would say, I'm too old for this sh*t.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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From: The South Ireland
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Ricardo)
I get what your saying , and it's right ... But now if flamenco is to move into the conservatories and official teaching on par with other styles , it has to be justified with diplomas, certificates and levels etc... This is lamentable .. But those who do it are doing it for a living , they can now teach ...they could anyway , but now they can qualify for grants and space and apply to la junta de andalucia , for example , for all kinds of start up stuff... It just is... Remember , jazz was at one time underground music , just messing about , experimenting , black man's music ...now , diplomas ...studying , officially recognised..organised and categorized... One difference is learning how to teach ...some of the best players I've met are really bad at teaching , (some) showing , getting the point over etc .fantastic improvisers etc but not good at imparting info ....and other lesser players are very good at it ..
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From: Washington, DC
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Morante)
quote:
Quite right. Flamenco is a cantaor, un tocaor and 2 aficionados seated at a table with a bottle of manzanilla and a plate of jamon de bellota. The further you move from this scene, the less flamenco it is.
Spot-on, Morante! You've nailed it! The best example of your description is the (circa 1969) video of Paco Cepero accompanying Camaron and Turronero at a cafe table with Paco de Lucia, and the group marking compas with knuckles rapping on the table. And there is even a copita of manzanilla in front of Camaron.
Basses, harmonicas, flutes, saxes, and rap??? Doesn't come close.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Kiko_Roca)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kiko_Roca
quote:
ORIGINAL: ViejoAmargo
As a way of comparison with other genres in other countries, I'm just thinking about learning to play the blues or country music in a music conservatory...? Has such thing happened?
Teaching jazz is probably a staple in just about every university music program in the USA. At my university, there were also classes in blues that covered theory/improvisation/etc.. There are several places you can get advanced music degrees in bluegrass. I don't have a ton of experience with any of this, but my impression is that it is exceptionally common to offer higher degrees and advanced training in common/folk music.
True, but look at some the great jazz players, Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Errol Garner. They were all self taught and didn't really study jazz in schools. George Benson always says he learned from others and indeed all of the stuff he plays was written by somebody else but he made them popular. I asked at some point how do jazz players improvise thinking they had some idea ahead of time what they were going play based on the chord progressions but no they don't. Joe Pass said you can't think and play, its in your subconscious and it just comes out. As much as i like jazz I found it to be not a good fit for me to pursue. I don't see any reason why Flamenco can't be taught in schools, it isn't that much different from classical guitar in that you have to learn good left and right hand techniques, its just that are many more techniques to learn and there are not that many teachers who how to play or teach them well, especially in the U.S. Flamenco is not as mainstream as jazz or classical and very few people here even know what it is or even like to hear it. I think it is an acquired taste, when I first started getting into flamenco music my family didn't really wan't to hear Paco Pena, Paco Cepero or any other of the greats, but now they have warmed up to it and ask me to put it on and are even willing to listen to my not so good playing. One of the things I like about Flamenco is its tradition and progression coming uniquely from Spain and its rarity around the world, I feel honored to be learning it. Having it taught in music schools could change it in a way that I might not like.
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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
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From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
ORIGINAL: El Kiko <snip> One difference is learning how to teach ...some of the best players I've met are really bad at teaching , (some) showing , getting the point over etc .fantastic improvisers etc but not good at imparting info ....and other lesser players are very good at it ..
Sabicas said that he had a brother who played the guitar, but he never taught his brother a single thing, because Sabicas was entirely self-taught, and didn't know how to teach.
It may have been a slight exaggeration, because Sabicas and his brother played and recorded some duets. On the other hand, maybe Sabicas's brother listened to Sabicas's piece, and worked out the 2nd guitar part on his own? But I'm inclined to think Sabicas must at least have said something like, "Why don't you try this?" at some point.
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Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Entirely possible ...My older brother plays the guitar ..in fact it was his guitar lying around the house i started on as a kid .....we never taught each other anything though ....in fact teaching family members would be the worse ...and source of many arguments that dont have to be ,,,,
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
quote:
I don't see any reason why Flamenco can't be taught in schools, it isn't that much different from classical guitar in that you have to learn good left and right hand techniques, its just that are many more techniques to learn and there are not that many teachers who how to play or teach them well,
If you taught flamenco in school the 101 class would not and should not be guitar. The first class should be history, culture and compas, then two more semesters focused on compas. Then letras origins and melodies. Then maybe a couple years in, guitar and technique. I know people who are tons more flamenco than me and can't play a single note but they can tell me what I'm doing is wrong. Flamenco guitar should be a few classes within the major, it shouldn't be the whole major.
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
Of course flamenco should be taught in conservatories if anybody suitably expert is available to teach it. It’s a distinctive musical genre now assuming an international following. Surely there are few members of the foro who are gitanos from Andalucía, just as there are few contemporary jazz artists who learned jazz in the bordellos of New Orleans.
There is something rather weird about all these non-flamenco students of flamenco claiming that it would be lamentable if flamenco entered conservatory teaching because, they argue, the only way to learn it is to immerse oneself in Andalucian culture for years. There are lots of ways of learning any musical genre and acquiring authenticity. The fact that you can acquire knowledge and skills without a conservatory education is irrelevant. You may never be as great a performer as a player who grew up in the culture but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be helped by a good musical education in your chosen genre.
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to gerundino63)
quote:
Ad some chipirones and I come over
Bueno, what about chipirones en su tinta on a bed of black rice. But you would'nt have time to play or listen to el cante. Mejor comer depués, o antes.
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to payaso)
quote:
Of course flamenco should be taught in conservatories if anybody suitably expert is available to teach it
This thread is very guitar orientated. Every flamenco guitarist studies technique. Some of them become good flamencos, some just become guitarists with a lot of technique.
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Morante)
Yes, of course. But flamenco dancers are very likely to learn their art in a dance conservatory. Guitarists seem more worried about the idea. Cante is something else. .
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Morante)
Flamenco is something else .. a way ..a life But this site isnt to cover everything , its limited by being a site ,its the nature of things as they are today .... so it does what it does . its not flamenco ..more of a supplement to flamenco for those who don't have local access to it .. there are singers and dancers on here too ...albeit a lot less ... . .
Flamenco dancers dont all learn in conservatory .. they grow up with it ..they learn from sisters , mother, grandma ..friends , they cant help dancing ..they learn at school and with their friends , by the time they decide to go to a professional dancer or school , they're often very good anyway ...in Spain I mean ...
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From: Washington, DC
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to payaso)
quote:
But flamenco dancers are very likely to learn their art in a dance conservatory.
Judging from my experience in the greater Washington, DC metropolitan region, I doubt that many flamenco dancers learn their art in a formal dance conservatory. There are several flamenco dance instructors in the region, and most flamenco dancers performing in this area learned their art from them. For example, Ana Martinez, the wife of Paco de Malaga, has been a professional flamenco dancer her entire life (with Paco as her accompanist) and has taught some of the flamenco dance instructors now teaching others.
I cannot speak with any authority about flamenco dancers in Andalucia or other places, but intuitively I suspect they learn the art from friends, professional dancers, and mentors, not from a conservatory.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to BarkellWH)
I believe there still is in Madrid a rather large flamenco dance academy in the Calle Amor de Dios. It was (still is?) famous throughout the whole country. An early scene in Saura's film "Carmen" is Antonio Gades and someone else at this academy, looking over the dancers to cast the part of Carmen in the flamenco version of the story they are planning to put on.
I express a little doubt whether it still exists because the last time I strolled down the Calle Amor de Dios four or five years ago, I don't remember a sign for the academy. But maybe it is so famous they don't need a sign?
If you get a chance to see the film, maybe on the web, my girlfriend and I really enjoyed it when it first played in San Fracisco in the 1980s--and she was (and still is) a bit of an art film fan.
Gades was one of the greats, in my opinion. There are also great dance performances by Cristina Hoyos, and Laura del Sol, who plays the ingenue/femme fatale Carmen. The plot of the opera becomes entwined with real life, and....
Paco is in it, but no bass, flute, accordion, etc.
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