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I was at a little get together and the subject of Jerez vs Lebrija came up and someone began explaining differences but everyone was quickly distracted and the subject was changed. I'm not referring to Jerez letras vs Lebrija letras but more the actual groove/soniquete. I've been watching this Rito video trying to dissect it and am having trouble really discerning. https://youtu.be/oNe4viBIL4o I can't really hear the guitar that great and the palmas kind of all sounds the same to me in these videos. Yesterday I was hearing something about feeling 3's and soft 12's and 6's but I'm pretty unclear about this. Anybody really enlightened about this?? My usual teacher is a Lebrija expert but I haven't taken lessons in a year and don't wanna bug but mostly feel like this would be good topic for all of us less enlightened on the foro. Maybe it'll lead to some interesting stuff. Oh yeah than isn't there just a kind of "stock" type bulerias???
RE: Bulerias de Jerez vs bulerias de... (in reply to Leñador)
Great idea for a thread Lenny. Watching the Rito y Geografïa clip right now. Did you notice how in those Lebrija juergas there's always some gatecrasher from Utrera. You also get Fernanda de Utrera turning up in Moron in the writings of D. Pohren too. Wherever there's a party...
At the end of the day isn't the style of a town generally associated with some key figures / families who hung out there and jammed the most? Moron style ~ Diego del Gastor. Lebrija style ~ Pedro Bacan. Jerez style ~ take your pick, but I bet most people won't say Gerado Nunez since he's from another planet (no disrespect intended).
Am I imagining it or is Pedro Bacan stamping out the compas with gulpe a lot more clearly than those Jerez guys? Take 5:09 for example - very solid straight gulpe pattern tak-tak-tak-tak-tak-tak. It's so bloody noisy in the Jerez example that you can't hear the gulpe - is that a difference in style or a difference in room acoustics? I think style. I've got a CD of Pedro & the Pinini clan live where sometimes they'll just hit that E7 chord and hold a straight rhythm for eons and eons - you don't hear Jerez guys do that in quite the same way.
Or is it more about the flavour of the local booze and what that inspires?
RE: Bulerias de Jerez vs bulerias de... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
Am I imagining it or is Pedro Bacan stamping out the compas with gulpe a lot more clearly than those Jerez guys?
That's fair, I can see that. Good observation. Let's see if someone can expand on that. My understanding is the two styles are almost a "different compas" in a way.
I wish it were more obvious to me, like when I hear Morón, it's just blairingly obvious. That boom tak tak boom tak tak just fits. Everything else just sounds like bulerias to me.
Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Bulerias de Jerez vs bulerias de... (in reply to Leñador)
I think this topic, which comes up often and not just about lebrija, but any town vs Jerez, is utter BS. It comes down to this exactly:
quote:
At the end of the day isn't the style of a town generally associated with some key figures / families who hung out there and jammed the most? Moron style ~ Diego del Gastor. Lebrija style ~ Pedro Bacan. Jerez style ~ take your pick, but I bet most people won't say Gerado Nunez since he's from another planet (no disrespect intended).
Just individual playing style, and singing style, because artists tend to copy. Nothing more irritating to me than to have to constantly hear about "Jerez" style, when they only mean moraito who is more a derivative of PDL than other jerezanos such as Manuel Morao or Parrilla or Cepero etc. At least when it comes to the slower contra swing Soniquete of compas vs the fast thing the older players did. So all this plus the fact many players stick with their singers, or used to.
One time this singer from Triana had to spend an hour explaining that I didn't have the Soniquete of Triana, and as I dug into it honestly, he admitted NO BODY has it except one guitarist from there, no recordings. Finally I met his guitarist years later and asked him to show me and he laughed and said the singer I referred to was crazy and he proceeded to play "normal" Buleria.
RE: Bulerias de Jerez vs bulerias de... (in reply to Leñador)
Really???? Okay, that actually makes me feel a lot better! Haha I feel like I'm pretty sensitive to these things and was beating myself in the head trying to find a unique pattern that went with that city. If you played Cepero, Moraito and Morao and asked me to tell you who was who it'd be no probem at all for me that's why I couldn't figure out "what's one thing all 3 do that players from other cities don't." Thanks Ricardo, this makes me feel a bit better about it.
RE: Bulerias de Jerez vs bulerias de... (in reply to Leñador)
Que se yo. Just an aficionado.
The first time I heard a bulerias de Lebrija it was La Yerbabuena. They took it much slower that bulerias de Jerez. And it was pulsed 12-3-6-9 with references to 12-2-4 occasionally, especially at cierres. It is more majestic or stately in my opinion due to the letras (lots of Romances, more than in Jerez) and the sometimes Waltz-like feel. I think originally each locale does acquire its own flavor but through the tablao and touring circuit things get mixed and it is hard for even them to tell. First rule of history and anthropology is not to project your own understanding onto another culture (without good arguments). Second rule is, don't always take their view at face value because sometimes they can't articulate it, don't know, or have ulterior motives (Yes, some people are genuine and will help you. Others, not so much).
Letras are more important than you realize. Some have developed in particular regions with particular melodic possibilities even though they could be interpreted in other ways.
I can't remember who it is but there is an American aficionado from the 60-70s who has a hypothesis that the Jerez toque, at least some of its traits, were adopted as a kind of generic commercial toque that everyone could use. The bulerias is relatively young with roots in Chuflas, Jaleo, and solea so it is more recent in its codification. There is a constant pull between codification, sello propio, and local flavor all influenced by a larger commercialization.
Anyway, flamenco knowledge is a path, not a destination. Enjoy the search.
RE: Bulerias de Jerez vs bulerias de... (in reply to Leñador)
That's great! Yeah I do get the letras are a big deal and can KIND OF identify those a bit. Interesting about the 12, 2, 4 thing. My teacher learned lived and learned in Lebrija for some years and I do that 12 2 4 thing a lot which I learned from him. Didn't realize it was kind of a Lebrija thing.
Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Bulerias de Jerez vs bulerias de... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
Didn't realize it was kind of a Lebrija thing.
It's just like conspiracy theory....the brain starts connecting unrelated dots with straight lines. An art all its' own IMO. It's impossible to know what town someone is from by the way they play...it's just a guessing. Only after knowing an individual and his town can you start to construct a BS theory about what the "town" style is supposed to be. You can extend it to Gitano vs Payo toque etc....
Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Bulerias de Jerez vs bulerias de... (in reply to Kevin)
quote:
I recall reading two interviews by monster guitarists from Jerez that both claimed that although they were in many ways members of the younger generation and played "modern," that they also often got calls to accompany their Jerezano cohorts because they really had that style down. I hate to break it to you but there really are localized practices, otherwise anthropologists working on cultures all over the world wouldn't have jobs. There really are differences even among members of the same group.
Not saying it's not reality that people THINK that way, of course they do. But it is a sort of predjudice that comes down to, as mentioned, specifics of an individual's style, not a generalized thing.
RE: Bulerias de Jerez vs bulerias de... (in reply to Leñador)
What I really take from this is if there is a difference between the two it's negligible enough for me to not worry about it, if someone sings a letra from Lebrija at a party I wouldn't have my guitar snatched for not putting some different funk to it.
RE: Bulerias de Jerez vs bulerias de... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
What I really take from this is if there is a difference between the two it's negligible enough for me to not worry about it, if someone sings a letra from Lebrija at a party I wouldn't have my guitar snatched for not putting some different funk to it.
Admittedly, it's a nerd thing to overthink this stuff. Just do it and find what works. (But I hate when people make historical or cultural observations without really understanding what it is they are doing).
RE: Bulerias de Jerez vs bulerias de... (in reply to Kevin)
There's another angle that could be taken to this thread. That's to look back at different cantaores through history and identify what innovations might bear their name whilst casually noting which town they were in when the inspiration struck. That's pretty much what Norman's site does for solea. I don't believe no one tried to do this before with bulerias. But even knowing where to start is beyond me right now.
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